The Jerusalem Post
September 3, 2010
In its basic form, the Ground Zero mosque debate boils down to a conflict between two competing values – American freedom of religion versus the sensitivities of the families of the victims of 9/11.
The freedom-of-religion argument suggests that if Jews sought to build a synagogue at Ground Zero (or anywhere else, for that matter), they would be within their rights. That’s the American way. The opposing view suggests that while not every Catholic was guilty in the Holocaust, and not every Muslim perpetrated the crimes of 9/11, sensitivities still matter. Pope John Paul II had the decency to force the Carmelite nuns out of Auschwitz, and Muslim leaders, too, ought to relocate their project.
Similarly, the mutual accusations are parallel: If you are opposed to the mosque, you are an Islamophobic racist. And if you’re in favor of it, you’re simply insensitive to the pain of those who lost loved ones in the attack.
But we Israelis have learned from our experience that matters are more complicated. One need not be racist or Islamophobic to be concerned about the mosque. For life in our region has taught us that the first necessary step to defending yourself is acknowledging that someone else is out to destroy you.
In the suburban, well-educated, politically and Jewishly liberal America in which I grew up, we didn’t use the label “enemy.” “Enemy” was a dirty word, because it implied the immutability of conflict.
Yes, there were people who fought us, but only because we hadn’t yet arrived at a fair resolution of our conflict. We needed to understand them, so we could then resolve the conflicts that divided us.
I still recall being jarred, when we made aliya, by the matter-of-factness with which Israelis use the word “enemy.” But it wasn’t a judgment or an accusation. It was simply a fact: There are people out to destroy our state, who seek to kill us and our children. And as the intifada later amply demonstrated, they did not yearn for our understanding or our friendship. They wanted our demise.
YEARS AGO, we took our then teenage daughter to an evening sponsored by the army, at which religious parents could ask questions about what the army would be like for their daughters. Some of the parents were downright hostile, clearly opposed to the prospect of their daughters joining the IDF. At one point, an obviously angry father stood up, turned to the base commander and asked (or more accurately hissed), “Do you make the girls work on Shabbat?” The room was perfectly silent, for everyone knew the answer. No one moved. Even the base rabbi said nothing. He stood at the podium, leaned into the mike and, lost in thought, played with his beard.
Suddenly, one of the three soldiers who’d been brought to address the parents, a young woman with her uniform shirt buttoned up to her chin, her sleeves extending to her wrists and her armyissued skirt down to her ankles, looked the father right in the eye, and without being called on, said to him, “Of course we work on Shabbat.” And then, after a second’s pause, she added, “Gam ha’oyev oved beshabbat” – the enemy also works on Shabbat.
It was a game changer. “What?” she essentially asked. “You think we do this for fun? There are people out there trying to destroy us. Either we’re as serious about this conflict as they are, or they’re going to win.”
I hadn’t thought of that young woman in years, but ever since the Cordoba Initiative controversy erupted, I’ve remembered her repeatedly. For Israelis do have something to teach Americans, and it’s very similar to what she said to that father.
It goes something like this: It’s fine to say that “America is not at war with Islam,” to point out that most Muslims are not terrorists and that many American Muslims are moderates. That’s true, as far as it goes.
But it only goes so far. Because America is at war and its enemies are Muslims. Politically correct hairsplitting runs the risk of Americans blinding themselves to that simple but critical fact. It makes no difference what percentage of the world’s Muslims wants to destroy America. There are enough of them that US air travel is now abominably unpleasant and, more importantly, enough of them that more strikes on America appear inevitable.
The US got lucky on Christmas Day when the bomber headed to Detroit failed to detonate his explosives, and was lucky again in Times Square in May, but less fortunate at Fort Hood. Yet those may be but the beginning. We could, heaven forbid, come to see 9/11 as child’s play.
THE UNITED States’ future is under attack, but Americans resist admitting it. President Barack Obama has sent 30,000 additional troops to Afghanistan, but he has also said that he intends to pull them out by July. Can we imagine FDR declaring war on Germany, but then adding that the war had to be over in a year, or in two? It would have been laughable. And America would have lost. The US has to decide – is it committed to destroying those who wish it ill, or is it willing to be destroyed by them? Those, sadly, are its only two alternatives.
When my parents were teenagers, they watched as evil took hold of Europe. But then they saw America turn itself into an unprecedented, enormous military machine. For America’s leaders understood that if the Nazis won, the world as we knew it would be over; we could either destroy Nazism, or have no reason to go on.
But when my children were teenagers, a different evil took root across their eastern horizon. This time, though, the world has feigned impotence.
Iran is at the nuclear threshold. Iraq was at best a “non-failure.” The battle against the Taliban and al-Qaida may take years, or decades, and may require many lives sacrificed if we are to win. But America has grown war-weary. Obama is already planning to bring the troops home; the word “terrorist” is increasingly off-limits in the US because it is considered “politically loaded.”
Americans simply want the conflict to be over.
Its tendency to gentility is part of what has made America great. But an unwillingness to call an “enemy” an enemy could lead to America’s demise. For Islam’s radical leaders tell us clearly what they seek: a world united under Islam, with America’s sacred freedoms eradicated as a new “morality” replaces them. What is much less clear is whether Americans are willing to fight – to die and to kill – to protect those freedoms.
Whether or not the Ground Zero mosque ultimately gets built may not matter nearly as much as whether or not Americans are willing to gird themselves for the battles that sadly lie ahead. We Israelis understand the fatigue that comes with war. We, like Americans, would much prefer a world in which we did not have mortal enemies.
We, like Americans, would much prefer that our children went to college at 18, and not to years of military service. But we’ve learned that anything short of absolute clear-sightedness and honesty – coupled with extraordinary sacrifice – could destroy us.
The same is true for America. The truly important question that the “Islamophobia” accusation raises is not what will transpire with a proposed building, but what will happen with a worldview.
It still remains to be seen if America will do what it must if it is to guarantee the survival of the very values it is now debating. America can remain the “land of the free,” but only if it is also the “home of the brave.”
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Dr. Daniel Gordis is Senior Vice President of the Shalem Center, where he is also a senior fellow. The author of numerous books on Jewish thought and currents in Israel...
The Jewish State must end, say its enemies, from intellectuals like Tony Judt to hate-filled demagogues like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Even average Israelis are wondering if they wouldn't be better off somewhere else. 
To Victor K
What you say would seem to make a lot of sense. Except this is NOT a legal or constitutional issue. No matter the ‘unresolved feelings’ about Islam or even worse individual and community prejudice about various groups (Paul), the relevant community leaders and constituents still have the right to disallow certain centers and groups or activities in certain buildings in certain locations. Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, Jewish–they can all be denied equally. It would seem to me that while many left wing-nuts love to hate the right-wing nuts, and visa versa, this is misnamed battle. Most people do NOT want this center in this place, legal or otherwise. And this is the overiding issue as this center can be built elsewhere. While the fact that many would disallow ALL muslim centers if they could; the law would disallow this. Again, this is NOT an issue of equal rights but an issue of community decision making. Some streets get ‘farmers markets’ and others dont. This muslim center needs to go elsewhere. Community ‘sensitivity’ does matter in the community; not only law.
“M” wrote above: “Again, this is NOT an issue of equal rights but an issue of community decision making.”
Indeed, and the community has decided: the Landmarks Preservation Commission decided that the building could be sold to the new owners, and furthermore the existing zoning law does not prohibit any places of worship in this neighborhood (or any other, to my knowledge).
Dr. Gordis, you cleverly evaded saying which side of the fence you are on, but you have only fanned this debate further. I can well accept that we (in America, or in the West) are in a struggle against militant Islam, but how does denying the establishment of a Sufi Islamic center in lower Manhattan contribute positively in any way towards this struggle? You didn’t articulate that at all.
Jon
Jon
I’ve got an idea : let’s call it the Burlington Coat Factory Mosque (in recognition of what was there previously) and move on to discuss important things.
Dr. Gordis,
I look forward to your newsletters because you so often say what I think or what I’d like to say, only in more articulately. The depth of your sensitivity to issues of being a Jew in the world and in Israel often bring tears to my eyes.
Not this time. This time you set up the wrong premise—that the issue is one of religious freedom vs. the sensitivities of the families of 9/11 victims—and draw the wrong conclusion—that Americans don’t understand that “they” may be out to get “us” whether we are paranoid or not. Ten years ago, your conclusions may have been true. Most of us were caught off guard and surprised by an enemy who played by different rules from our own. We hadn’t connected the dots from the attacks on US embassies in the middle east, to the bombing of the USS Cole, to 9-11. We’ve had a decade to educate ourselves. We’ve also had a decade to watch the rise of fundamentalism across the globe and across religions. “Theirs” are better organized and funded but no more crazy than “ours.” Ours make me deeply ashamed.
However, awareness of our enemy and the stakes of not recognizing our enemy are not the same as being for or against the building of an Islamic center and mosque in the neighborhood of the World Trade Center, where I worked for decades before and after 9-11. I was one of the people who breathed the deadly air in the months and years after the attack. I have registered with the NYS Victims Disability Compensation Board in case….
I do not oppose the creation of this center. That Osama bin Laden may cheer the building as his “victory” is not my business. I don’t care what he laughs at, at the same time that I am deeply disturbed by my government’s inability to find/catch him so that I can see him laughing at the glass cell I’d like to see built for him. What I do care about is who I am, as an American and a Jew. I care about the values I learned and have not managed to unlearn. I care about holding on to a belief that I can identify an enemy without tarring all of his brethren with the same brush. If I don’t continue to care about that, then I am not—we are not—who I think we are.
Why do we keep giving this bigot Paul a forum to spread his venom? Most of you have given reasoned, intelligent responses regardless of what side of the issue you are on. He is getting tiresome, but my concern is that there are so many more who think as he does. This is may last comment, but I’m sure this angry person who distorts American values will continue his nonsense.
Mayor Michael Bloomberg was interviewed by Jon Stewart a couple of weeks ago. He said:
…this mosque has been operating for over a year; there’s nothing new here. The difference is that we’re in election season and this whole issue will, I think, go away right after the next election. This is, plain and simple, people trying to stir up things, to get publicity, and trying to polarize people so they can get some votes and I don’t think that most of these people who are yelling and screaming really care one way or another. The family members [of the victims of 9/11], they do care and the family members that I have talked to–and I am Chairman of the Board of the World Trade Center Memorial–are 100% in favor of saying “These people who want to build a mosque can build a mosque. The lives of our loved ones were taken because the right to build a mosque or to say what you want to say was so threatening to [the terrorists].
My girlfriend and I were having dinner last week and this guy comes up to me and says, “I want to talk to you.” Big hulking guy and I think, “I don’t need this” and he said “I want to talk to you about the mosque” and I’m thinking this is going to ruin my hamburger…{this is, after all, The Daily Show…} and he said, “Let me just tell you: I just got back from fighting two tours for America. This is what we were all fighting for. You go and keep at it.”
And that’s what the issue is all about. A bunch of people fanning flames of fear on one side, ironically in the name of American law and ideals, and people actually standing up for American law and ideals on the other. Or so it seems to me.
Bloomberg also said that there would be no similar controversy if the project was to build a church or a synagogue. On this he is also correct.
George Orwell wrote, in Animal Farm:
“All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.”
Is that really the America any of us wants to live in?
@Shlomo Ben Yehuda: Paul is a troll. In Internet slang, a troll is someone who deliberately posts inflammatory or off-topic messages on a forum or discussion board for the express purpose of causing maximum disruption or argument.
If you feed the troll, he is encouraged to continue. If you ignore (starve) the troll, he usually goes away.
Dr. Gordis, I appreciate your provocative article, and I agree with you on two major points:
1. We do have enemies in America
2. The times call for bravery
Having said that, I have a different take on some of your conclusions, starting with “enemies.” We learn from Sun Tzu’s ancient treatise on military strategy, “The Art of War,” that it is critical to “know your enemy.” In America, our enemies are al-Qaida and other militant jihadist groups. To learn more about them, I recommend Lawrence Wright’s excellent book, “The Looming Tower.”
As important as knowing your enemies, it seems to me, however, is knowing your friends. Your article implies that all Muslims are our enemies. I disagree. The Sufis and the moderate Muslims could be our friends unless we insist on seeing them as enemies.
Moving on to “bravery.” Different situations call for different types of bravery. You, for example, are brave enough to live in Israel, surrounded by enemies. This bravery involves sending your own children to war for the sake of the mission of the Jewish people. All I can say to this is “thank you.”
In America right now, we also have a call to military bravery in Afghanistan. The Cordoba Initiative, however, is a different type of call. It’s a call to the kind of bravery that involves speaking words in dangerous situations, for the sake of an important principle or truth. It’s about evolving our civilization past fundamentalism, and even beyond simple toleration, to a place where we can celebrate and encourage the faiths of others.
The topic of sensitivity to the trauma of 9-11 victims does give me pause. I sense a lot of grief still present in so many of the entries above. I pray that those in charge of the Cordoba House project will remember this pain and treat it with sensitivity. As for myself, the only possible response I can take to the trauma of 9-11 is the same one I take in the wake of the holocaust, that is, “never again.” In this regard, it bears considering the city that inspired the name “Cordoba House,” and another “never again” we should remember well: the end of the last golden age of religious tolerance in Medieval Spain. This era was brought to an end by successive waves of religious fundamentalism, culminating four centuries later in the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492.
May the Cordoba House of New York City become a place where we can continue the dialog now, a thousand years later, and have the bravery to confront the very real and difficult questions we face as citizens of the world in fighting destructive fundamentalism of every kind.
Note: I’d like to thank Larry Gellman for his reference to Kristof’s article, which I found very helpful.
Jane P-B: Thank you for the clearest, most sensitive, most sensible, and most Jewishly informed response to this column yet. As they say at HuffPost, fanned and faved!
Just to prove I am not a troll dr dave. I would like to point out that I am an american with undivided loyalties. It makes no difference if you or I disagree about any issue it only matters that I have that right as well as you to disagree. If you run out of arguments and cant stand to back up your position then name calling becomes the defense as you have proven. a muslim mosque has no place in this country for any reason anyone wants to claim, they do not belong here, they are not interested in belonging here until we are gone. gioving them a foot hold is merely securing our own destruction. history makes that very clear. muslims have been following the same play book for thousands of years. I would think that if anyone were to understand this jews would be at the top of the list. How many of you have been here for generations because muslims chassed you out of palistine. your reasonning and your theiories just dont wash. wake up before you have to find another place to run to. Isreal does not want more muslims why should we? if you like the idea of this mosque being built offer to let them build in Isreal. we do not want it and you are welcome to it. Now show us your joy at this possibility.
Ben actually I could but will not here. I’m not interested in writing a book to explain it all to you. beside you should do your own home work there are plenty of books out there already. lots of muesums and historical sites around the country to visit. If you toured this country instead of isreal you might know more.
Shlomo you may think my views are distorted but why does over 60% of the country in recent polls agree with me? is it possible you need to re think your position? Why dont you make a trip to Isreal and discuss the next mosque to be built in your neibhborhood. when you come back I really would like to see the plan.
Dr dave, this may be difficult for you but give it the old college try. go back over everyone of my numerous posts and tell me where I introduced anything not related to a responce to sommeone else post. I have not brought new topics in all I have done is responed in my way to those statements or questions. I guess your definition of troll does not fit. your lack of arguement seems to be the problem.
Shlomo a Jew calling a Christian a biggot, you dont even understand what is wrong with that. you can walk into my church and go anywhere you please but how far would I get into yours? If you didnt spend so much time in your jewish enclave and isreal, not associating or asymilating with americans, maybe you would understand american values more or better.
One thing missing from these posts (unless I missed it) is the fact that a mosque represents a totalitarian ideology of which Islam is a part. There were two phases of Islam and, thus, there are two Korans. The first was peaceful. It was believed that Mohammad may have developed schizophrenia because the send phase was murderous, vile, and hedonistic, whereby Mohammad created laws to fulfill his every whim, including pedophilia. Schizophrenics often have violent auditory hallucinations and paranoia, accompanied by delusions. It is plausible that Mohammad had this disorder and acted out on the hallucinations and delusions.
Getting back to Islam being a totalitarian ideology, it is an ideology which is incompatible with other religions and laws. The imam in charge of this project has been known to speak one way to American and quite another way when he is speaking Arabic. Check it out.
Most Muslims are peaceful and it is a small fraction that are jihadists. However, for those who are aware of what is going on in Europe, commonly referred to as Eurabia now, they are projected to being taken over by this minority, the same minority that marches through the streets with hoods over their head and signs threatening another holocaust, beheadings, and such.
IT IS THIS MINORITY THAT IS DRIVING THE MUSLIM AGENDA. The silent majority of Muslims knows they will be the first to be murdered if they speak up publicly. Some are speaking privately, not many.
There are some Muslim women in Canada that have come out publicly against Sharia Law, something that the Canadian government is now considering. They speak out at great risk and I pray for their safety. They are incredibly courageous.
Ninety percent of what is being taught in the mosques is hate. I have a mosque in my neighborhood and the mother of two children going there told me her children never hated anyone and now they speak often of how they hate the Jews. They have been investigated and have been found to be funded by Iran but the FBI is still trying to gather more information to make a stronger case.
These same children carry signs of hate for Jews and Israel. I’ve seen it with my own eyes and as recently as last Friday. I belong to a pro-Israel support group and we counter with a quiet, dignified, positive demonstration.
We’ve already had one Holocaust of Jews. There are holocausts going on in Africa by Muslims daily. WE ARE NOT IMMUNE.
mr. gordis and acolytes here is the product of the obscurantist thinking you advocate …nice job
from the nyt today
American Muslims Ask, Will We Ever Belong?
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
For nine years after the attacks of Sept. 11, many American Muslims made concerted efforts to build relationships with non-Muslims, to make it clear they abhor terrorism, to educate people about Islam and to participate in interfaith service projects. They took satisfaction in the observations by many scholars that Muslims in America were more successful and assimilated than Muslims in Europe.
Now, many of those same Muslims say that all of those years of work are being rapidly undone by the fierce opposition to a Muslim cultural center near ground zero that has unleashed a torrent of anti-Muslim sentiments and a spate of vandalism. The knifing of a Muslim cab driver in New York City has also alarmed many American Muslims.
“We worry: Will we ever be really completely accepted in American society?” said Dr. Ferhan Asghar, an orthopedic spine surgeon in Cincinnati and the father of two young girls. “In no other country could we have such freedoms — that’s why so many Muslims choose to make this country their own. But we do wonder whether it will get to the point where people don’t want Muslims here anymore.
and here’s another
From the Other Side of Ground Zero, Anti-Muslim Venom
By FERNANDA SANTOS
The Internet evangelist Bill Keller moved toward the dais in tiny, quick steps on Sunday, exhibiting the anticipation of a man ready to address a crowd. Roughly 60 people stood before him in a hotel meeting room in Lower Manhattan, temporary quarters of his Christian center, his response to the mosque planned for an empty building nearby.
“If we’re going to do something in New York City, we’re going to do something that’s not just bold and visible, but something that has a lasting presence,” said Mr. Keller, who is from the Tampa Bay area of Florida.
Later, he told reporters that Muslims “can go to their mosque and preach the lies of Islam and I’ll come here to preach the truth of the Gospel.”
I would like to add that I have developed a friendship with a former Muslim who was an imam for 20 years.
He escaped with his family when he realized the truth and I have learned much from him. He is very much against any mosques anywhere in the world and said that the peaceful form of islam “requires” love and support of Israel and other religions and that they do not need a mosque, nor do they need to pray five times a day. This is all part of the power and control of the imams and mullahs.
For those on Facebook, his page can be found at: http://www.facebook.com/md4israel#!/IsraelMohamadChristian?ref=ts
He also has a website and when I went to it just now, there was a problem. I urge you to connect with him. He working as an anti-terrorist and he welcomes questions.
First of all, it is not a mosque, it is a community center — to keep calling it a mosque is to define the YMCA as a church because it contains a Christian chapel. Secondly, it is not at Ground Zero it is two blocks away — farther away from the “hallowed ground” than a strip club — unlike the convent that was built on the grounds of Auschwitz. And unlike that convent, whose inhabitants wanted to be there in order to convert the Jews, the Muslim community center has a mission of reaching out to all Americans in peace. I’m sorry if the feelings of 911 survivors (which include a not insignificant number of Muslim families, by the way) are hurt. But if this project is forced to move because of community pressure, what religion will be next to be forced out? If someone doesn’t want a synagogue in their part of town, that will be OK?
M peters. you seem like a very nice guy so i’m going to make you a very good offer. I want to sell you my mountain resort in florida. it is complete with a 30 thousand foot high ski lift and at that altitude it snows all year long. it has 4,000 condominiums that rent for two million dollars per month and is 98 percent occupied year round, I can let you have it for 500 dollars please send cash. or you could wake up and realize that muslims are trained to lie from an early age and are most convincing. I do not doubt that there are a few muslims that want to convert but the religion its self is the issue, non converts are the problem. we cant even believe the converts are serious. what better example do we have than our christian president?? gullibility can be sweet or deadly.
TO: Paul
A while backyou stated that Christian would not be welcome in a synagogue. You are completly wrong. I understand that Mormon have closed religious services but Jews do not. Anyone who behaves respectfully is welcome at any Jewish service. With respect to Israel, there are millions of Evangelical Christians who strongly support the State of Israel.
I know an Orthodox rabbi who has just returned from leading a group of Christian to Israel going to both Christian and Jewish sacred sites.
12:3, if you know what I mean.
Zusel ben Shlomo
Ben believe it or not I support Isreal. I just do not tollerate an isrealli explaining to me what american values are or telling me what I should accept or why. as an american my first responsibilites are to my country, My religion and my values. the Christian Bible tells us to never forsake isreal.
to M:
I suppose that you do not consider the Mayor of the City of New York and the President of the United States to be “relevant community leaders.”
I wonder where you get the idea that these “leaders” have the “right to disallow certain community centers . . . .”
Is it in the US Constitution, or Federal law, or State law, or City law, or your imagination, that you find this “right”?
As I recall, it was not “community sensitivity,” but Federal law, that decided whether young black students could go to high school in Little Rock, Arkansas.
maybe many of you do not know tha there are approximately 63,000,000 laws on the books in this country. this is the issue many conservatives are upset about and the reason why so many things that should not be happening are. many of those laws are in fact un constitution and have no force or effect, until they are repealed or ruled on by the US supreme court we can not stop them from attempting to be enforced. So just because a law exists does not make it constitutional or enforceable. read the constitution carefully and you will find that our membership in the united Nations is unconstitutional article six clause two. Liberalism is destroying this country with many thousands of bad laws. I would like to see it be made mandatory for all politicians to be tested on their knowledge of the constitution before they could take office. few currently elected could pass the test and cetrtainly not democrates or liberals synonims for communists. the federal reserve banking system is illegal. income tax is illegal all given to us by democrates and progressive liberals.
To Paul: I agree with much of what you are saying.
To Victor
Of course the mayor & President
are relevant, but they do not
seem to be representing the
community well in this instance.
A center for peace and building
Bridges should not be built where
in location where it is so widely
Opposed. Surely they can
Build somewhere else on manhattan.
What law prohibits the community
and city to decide they made a mistake
and let it love elsewhere? Could
it have something to do with $’s?
Enough already! Apparently no one’s mind is going to be changed. I just have one final comment: Judging by what is happening in Europe, this is a matter of SURVIVAL. What you fine liberals need is a stay in a concentration camp, then you’d know what it takes to survive. By turning the other cheek and being blind and hoping for the best, will only help you lose cheeks…and your freedoms.
I think one thing many are forgetting new york city is where the attack happend, but the attack was on the united states, all of us. it could just as well have been in phoenix arizona or denver colorado. new york is not the only location that was attacked, put it into perspective, who is the mayor of new york to make such decisions and who actually believes obama is actually the president. look at the lt. lakin case. If you read the Tora with great concern why not read the constitution with reasonable respect? give an oath the proper respect. an oath is a direct promise to God supposedly the same God jews and christians both honor.
Miriam–There are things you DO NOT SAY, and you just said one of them. No one, EVER, should wish anyone into a concentration camp. Be glad we’re entering the Haggim, when you can repent before you’re judged.
Paul, I’m not going to respond any more to the “substance” of your comments, but could you please learn to spell Israel?
Muslims working in the World trade Center on 9/11 died. They, too, were victims that day. The US and Israel should not be compared. Israel was carved out of Arab lands and has neighborhood issues. The US gets along with Canada and Mexico much better than Israel does with its neighbors. Ground Zero will once again be dedicated to world trade and business. It will not be some kind of secular holy site that a community center should not be near. We have to be smart and careful enough to recognize our enemies and also who can be our allies in our defense. Friendly and accepted Muslims are to be encouraged. Who do you think we are giving so much money to and instructing in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Why should that be different at home?
Jennifer-What I said was based on a stay in the Soviet Union in ther seventies. When I asked a young man how Jews are treated, he said just fine as long as they don’t act like Jews. What they need is a pogrom to remind them who they are.
All this proves is that we are all a product of our personal history. People who have NEVER experienced any true oppression [most Americans], can’t make an intelligent judgement as to what it takes to survive. Unfortunately, you learn after it is too late. IT IS NOT TOO LATE TO THINK AS IF YOUR LIFE IS AT STAKE. Because it is.
I hope I may comment here. I am not American but have travelled extensively in that great country.
I am however, an Anglican ‘Friend of Israel’ and an admirer of Rabbi Daniel Gordis whose capacity for rational analysis has led me to enjoyable and diverse research interests.
One is a little alarmed by the (apparently) uniformed designation of the Imam of the proposed Ground Zero community centre and mosque as a Sufi and therefore, by definition, a man of mystical and gentle faith.
Such a generalisation belies reality. Sufis are NOT all of this ilk. In fact, the Islamic brotherhood in Egypt, and Al Qaeda, are both Sufi based movements.
Sufis are “movements”, within, and in a few extreme cases outside of mainstream Islam. The designation Sufi cover many different “stripes” of Islam.
Sufis organize themselves into “orders” or groups, called Tariqas.
The Sufi Tijaniyah (Tijaniyya) Order, founded in Morocco by Ahmad at-Tijani in 1781, extended the borders of Islam toward Senegal and Nigeria, and their representatives founded large kingdoms in West Africa.
The Sufi Tijaniyah Order is strongly associated with the Muslim Brotherhood, which began in Egypt in the late 1920s and later spread throughout the Arab world.
Hasan al-Banna, who founded the Muslim Brotherhood in 1928 in Egypt, called for radical measures to bring about a return of [worldwide] Islamic government.
The goal of the Muslim Brotherhood was the establishment of an Islamic state based on Shariah….. the Brotherhood’s superior organization made it a political force far stronger than its numbers might suggest.
Many of the methods which made Sufism a succesfull occult underground helped the Muslim Brotherhood function effectively.
After World War II, the Muslim Brotherhood acquired a reputation as a radical group prepared to use violence to achieve its religious goals.
The Brotherhood’s stated goal is to instill the Qur’an and Sunnah as the “sole reference point for … ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community … and state”.
Organizations in the US started by activists involved with the Muslim Brotherhood include the Muslim Students Association in 1963, North American Islamic Trust in 1971, the Islamic Society of North America in 1981, the American Muslim Council in 1990, the Muslim American Society in 1992, the International Institute of Islamic Thought in the 1980s, and CAIR – Council on Americal-Islamic Relations 1994.
CAIR was founded by three officers of the Islamic Association of Palestine (IAP)—Omar Ahmad (IAP President; became CAIR President), Nihad Awad (IAP PR Director; became CAIR Secretary & Treasurer), and Rafeeq Jaber (IAP Chicago Chapter President; became CAIR Vice President).
IAP was an Islamist organization that it was later revealed raised money in the US for Hamas, though it billed itself as “a not-for-profit, public-awareness, educational, political, social, and civic, national grassroots organization”.
It is my understanding that the Imam in question has proven connections with all the above.
seems like mr gordis and his acolytes are with the reverend not the general because of course the former is the better patriot
Associated Press Writer Mitch Stacy, Associated Press Writer – 46 mins ago
GAINESVILLE, Fla. – The government turned up the pressure Tuesday on the head of a small Florida church who plans to burn copies of the Quran on Sept. 11, warning him that doing so could endanger U.S. troops and Americans everywhere.
But the Rev. Terry Jones insisted he would go ahead with his plans, despite criticism from the top U.S. general in Afghanistan, the White House and the State Department, as well as a host of religious leaders.
Jones, who is known for posting signs proclaiming that Islam is the devil’s religion, says the Constitution gives him the right to publicly set fire to the book that Muslims consider the word of God.
Gen. David Petraeus warned Tuesday in an e-mail to The Associated Press that “images of the burning of a Quran would undoubtedly be used by extremists in Afghanistan — and around the world — to inflame public opinion and incite violence.” It was a rare example of a military commander taking a position on a domestic political matter.
Jones responded that he is also concerned but is “wondering, ‘When do we stop?’” He refused to cancel the protest set for Saturday at his Dove World Outreach Center, a church that espouses an anti-Islam philosophy.
Well i tried to spell israel several times for you but it got blocked
Speaking from experience, I find it sad when veterans of a campaign do not understand their mission. my eyes were not oppened about vietnam until I returned and was assigned to an S2 unit under direct control of the pentagon. the person mentioned in an earlier post claims he is happy to have fought in Afganistan and Iraq and encourages the construction of this mosque. what he fails to understand is that the ones he was fighting against over there are the ones building this mosque. the ones he was supposed to be protecting and fighting for are the loosers if this mosque gets built.
I’m wondering how many understand the concept of critical analysis? I’m beginning to think it may be a lost art. it requires the taking in of all availible information and then filling in the holes with sound reason, looking at any and every possibility for a solution. Frankly I owe my life to being successful at it. as an instructor of electronic warfare devices. I had the opportunity to disarm a device no one in our unit had ever seen, thanks to making the right guesses, I successfully disarmed a device that was guaranteed for 30 million dollars that it could not be disarmed. we were told they were practice dummies. it turned out they were absolutely real, live and armed when they were delivered. those units actually set on the shelf for two weeks before we attempted to disarm them. I wound up being the one that actually did the disarming. it only took 96 consecutive individual procedure to make them safe. one mistake would have set off three pounds of C-4 explosive. the very last procedure was turning off the switch that armed the detonator. it had three positions and no markings. I had no way of knowing it was armed until the battery light was uncovered in proceedure number 95. Maybe this is why I am never concerned with people that disagree with my conclusions. 14 other people were very happy with my analitical skills. they went home alive that day. so if anyone dislikes my comments they have to realize I dont care. I learned to trust my decisions and I take responsibility for them. None of those 14 men cared about my spelling or grammar.
I don’t think Americans are getting tired of the fight. Arabs say that Israel is another crusader state that will eventually get tired and go away. They are wrong.
Don’t underestimate America’s staying power.
Paul, you speak for me, too.
To those who disagree, I say, stop trying to be right and open your eyes and your ears. This isn’t about right or wrong. It’s about an ideological war being waged against us and you are aiding and abetting the enemy.
I noticed in another post the call for military bravery. appearently from someone that has never been on the battle field. We have a president that has never had on a uniform let alone be near a battle field. he sets impossible guidelines for contact with the enemy. we had the same thing in vietnam. dont fire until you are fired upon? how well do you function after taking a hit? If you see an enemy target you take it out before it takes you out. they are not called the enemy because they are late for dinner. in combat you do not take turns at dying to be polite. it is kill or be killed and the first round counts. you may not know where that first round is comming from and they have the time to aim well before pulling the trigger and giving away their position. the enemy never fires warning shots. civilians never carry automatic weapons and rocket launchers in a combat zone. you are just as dead when shot by a ten year old as you are when being shot by a 50 year old. if they do not want their children killed keep them out of the fight. remember saddams troops used human shields too bad if they are not bullet proof. combat is taking out the enemy not crying over people caught in the middle. if you dont shoot you have a very short life. your death weakens your units strength. people without combat experience need to keep their mouth shut. Mr president.
This article from Sultan Knish may shed some light for those who are sitting in the dark:
Islam Did Attack Us on September 11
Posted: 07 Sep 2010 08:05 PM PDT
“Islam did not attack the World Trade Center — Al Qaeda did,” Mayor Bloomberg
From a technical standpoint, Mayor Bloomberg is correct. In the sense that all of Islam did not get together in four airplanes and fly them into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. In that same sense, Japan did not attack Pearl Harbor, only a few hundred Japanese people did, under the command of the Japanese Air Force. So too, in that particular instance 19 Muslims, under the command of an international Muslim group hijacked the planes and killed over 3,000 people. But in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor, the United States didn’t declare war on a few hundred Japanese pilots, or the Japanese air force. We declared war on Japan.
On 9/11, Al Qaeda did not act in the name of 19 people, or ten thousand or so followers. It acted in the name of Islam. And while anyone can claim to do anything in the name of Islam, Al Qaeda was not some random fringe group. Al Qaeda drew its ideological support from the Muslim Brotherhood, the largest Muslim political group in the world. It and its allies drew on financial support from the governments of some of the world’s largest and most influential Muslim countries in the world, including Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. These are countries which compromise some 200 million Muslims.
Meanwhile the vast majority of Muslims in poll after poll agree with Al Qaeda’s goals, they only disagree with its methods. Since Al Qaeda’s methods are illegal, and support for them is a potentially prosecutable offense, it’s not surprising that this disjunction exists. But the fact that most Muslims support Al Qaeda’s goals, makes it impossible to argue that it is not representative of Muslims. Most Muslims see themselves as sharing Al Qaeda’s goals, they are just not prepared to openly say that they support its methods.
Those who dismiss Al Qaeda as unrepresentative of Islam, rarely like to talk about the support for its goals, only its methods. But the strong show of support for Al Qaeda’s goals, demonstrates why it is a popular organization in the Muslim world. And Al Qaeda’s goals are not non-violent, they involve the forcible application of Islamic law in Muslim countries that reduces non-Muslims and women to second class status. The vast majority of Muslims agree with Al Qaeda that America is the enemy and that the US should be forced out of Muslim countries. The majority agreed with pushing the US not to support Egypt, Israel, Saudi Arabia and Jordan… the endgame of which would be to allow Islamic groups to take them over. And finally the majority had positive or mixed feelings toward Bin Laden.
Most liberals would say that people who agree with the goals of the KKK, but disagree with some of its methods, are still KKK supporters. Yet they are unwilling to apply the same inevitable logic to the Muslim world, where the majority agrees with Al Qaeda’s goal of political power for Muslims only, and few rights left for anyone who doesn’t happen to be a Muslim man. That is a worldview that supports bigotry and tyranny, caning women and beheading men for offenses against Islamic law. And this is what most Muslims want to see enforced.
Western politicians like to talk about a “tiny minority of extremists” because it minimizes the size of the problem and saves them from having to make any tough choices. But that is not what we are dealing with here. Al Qaeda is not extremist in its goals. Not unless the majority of Muslims are also to be branded “extremist”. Al Qaeda is a minority, because only a minority of Muslims are willing to risk themselves in a fight. But by that measure virtually any army is a minority, since the majority of the population would rather not go out and die.
Al Qaeda may not represent every single Muslim on earth, but the majority do support its goals. They may be a bit more squeamish about the methods, but then most of the Germans who voted for Hitler may not have been willing to go as far as the gas chamber either, but they supported the goals of the Nazi party. And that is what damned them. Al Qaeda’s goals are just as ugly and hateful as those of the Third Reich. And indeed the Muslim Brotherhood, which served as its ideological grandparent, admired Nazi Germany.
But beyond the question of whether Muslims support Al Qaeda is a bigger question– does Islam itself support Al Qaeda?
A straight reading of the Koran shows that Mohammed and his followers acted in much the same way that Al Qaeda does. Mohammed made war upon non-Muslims in order to enforce Islamic law. He engaged in mass murder and terrorism. His men beheaded, looted, raped and assassinated men and women as part of their campaign of terror. And the Koran contains plenty of verses depriving non-Muslims of their rights and calling upon Muslims to murder them.
Al Qaeda employs technology and techniques unavailable to Mohammed, but they see themselves as carrying on his struggle. And it’s hard to distinguish between them on a moral or ethical level. Western politicians may insist that Al Qaeda has nothing to do with Islam, but Al Qaeda derives from Islam. There is no Al Qaeda without Islam.
If Al Qaeda’s goals were significantly at variance with Islam, it is common sense that they would have very little support in the Muslim world. Indeed Muslims would see them as enemies. But that is not quite the case. Al Qaeda is part of a rising Islamist tide, which seeks to create absolute Islamic states and a global Caliphate. When Muslims differ with Al Qaeda, it is on their level of commitment to Islam. Al Qaeda demands an absolute commitment to Islam that overrides all other values. It seeks a renewal of Mohammed’s old war against the infidel. Al Qaeda’s goal is a pure Islam.
Al Qaeda attacked us on September 11, but they did so in the name of Islam. And their precedent was over a thousand years of Muslim violence against non-Muslims. A violence that has its scriptural source in the words of the Koran. No individual Islamic terrorist attack or group can be detached from those words and precedents. The history of the Middle East did not begin in 1917 or 1948 or 1992. But while liberals insist on talking about the context for terrorism, they are unwilling to listen to any context broader than their own local politics. And what they are most unwilling to hear is that Muslim regional and global violence predates anything relating to the United States or any European countries.
Muslim violence emerges from the firm belief that only Islam can be allowed to rule. Al Qaeda is only one of many such historical attempts to enforce that through violence. That is why Islam did attack us on September 11. One and a half billion did not board four planes. But ideologies do not need to board planes, they have followers who are willing to carry out violence in their name. Until Muslims reform Islam, and abandon their allegiance to an Islamic law that imposes inferiority on non-Muslims, they cannot divorce themselves from Al Qaeda or September 11.
Baarbara LEwis – I think to show respect for the people that are upset what is wrong with moving the community city.
I have no problem if they move the place a little further away, the problem is that I have friends that are affected for life both mentally and physically, I have lost to many friends.
I have no problem building a mosque just I think it should be little further away, in respect to the people that we lost.
I have no problem with Muslims in my area where I live I had Muslim parters, I worked fro EMS, the fact is that there are many Muslims that would like the Mosque moved too. Only 2 blocks you say well it’s still the place so many people died right there 2 blocks away, there were people killed 4 and 5 blocks away, many building where the community center died!!! I sorry people don’t want a Muslim community center on the grave site. The YMCA is non-denominational and and they don’t have a church, if they do have a place of pray.
I wonder if dr gordis is reading any of these responces and if he has learned anything from them he may have over looked?
M. peters: you bring to light an issue that could use some comparrison but for only thoswe that take the time to read facts and history. the founder of the mormon religion spent his last days in an institution for the criminally insane, what you describe about mohamad is exactly the same kinds of behavior, experiences and actions displayed by the mormon dude. we know they both had numerous wives and questionable sexual activities so I think it is safe to say they both suffered from the same condition, late term effects of syphillis.
It’s difficult to say. Paul. Having years of experience working with people who suffer from schizophrenia, a thought disorder, and knowing there was no treatment, same for syphilis, we’re speculating. However,the fact that he went from being a peaceful loving man to a murderous pedophile, demonstrates a severe illness. The fact that 90% of the islam being taught in the mosques now is from this second phase is frightening.
We are at a pivotal place in history as to how we behave and the resulting outcome. Do we want to end up like Europe? I certainly don’t and equally frightening to me are the hordes of Americans who refuse to open their eyes to see what is going on. They believe they are being noble and righteous, while I consider it to be incredibly naive.
For those who disagree with Paul and myself, I implore you, please, go to youtube and do a search of “Muslim Europe demonstrations”. There are areas in Paris that are dangerous for the police to be and they have been ordered to stay away. You can check out Muslims Malmo and see for yourself and then let us hear from you again. Also, google the word “taqiyya”, making what this NYC imam is saying irrelevant. Arafat did it regularly, as do other Muslims. Again, not saying all Muslims are bad, but good Muslims mind their own business, going about their lives quietly and do NOT impose themselves and their beliefs on the rest of us.
When you have a group that insists on stopping traffic and must pray in the street, must blast their call to prayer, something’s not quite right.
Here is a link:
http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-Islamic-Principle-Lying-for-Allah.htm
zusel: A friend of mine was in one of those tour groups a few years ago. I have never been able to afford trips like that, no matter how much I would like to go. although my IQ seems to indicate I should be filthy rich most of my inventions have been on the clock so they belong to the companies I worked for and the widespread (world wide) use of those inventions have made the companies I worked for many millions of dollars, even the lastest changes in CPR were my brain child over 20 years ago. My grandfather with a tested IQ of 202 and a second grade education was listed on wall street and is directly responsible for running the piggly wiggly chain out of the state of indiana for many years. what piggly wiggly didnt know is that the little store they offer to buy out then threatened to force to close was backed up by six large wharehouses on rail road sidings and that every customer they hoped to take away from him he had carried through the great depression on credit. back when men had integrity and he never lost a penny.
Lalarryw:
If that is the same petraus, he was a captain in vietnam and my company commander, dont get your hopes up if it is.
One more thought: The latest writings in the Quran are the ones that count. All the previous peaceful stuff is cancelled out by what comes after…
the end of times?
we see the revolts in europe and nobody is reporting on the riots in LA, nearly a complete media blackout, why? it all has to do with saturation, what most people refuse to acknowledge is the true numbers of illegals in this country. I have interviewed the second in command at the yuma arizona immigration deadquarters. not being a great mathematician, I could be wrong but my figure from that interview indicate we have nearly 50 million illegals in just the hispanics. so what is the real count of muslims. all of the reports say 13 to 18 million hispanics and I tell you I live near the border and completely disagree with those reports. I was told that before the fence went up we averaged catching 15% of the illegals. just one years catch totlaled 485,000 and that has been going on for more than 20 years. you do the math. didnt obama just quietly fund the importation of more than 120,000 muslims? any sort of an amnesty would relect him. I tell you we are first hand witnesses to high treason. Nobody will even say the word publically, Why?
Jon: I think you may need to look at this issue differently. suppose american, the united states, is your only daughter. what would an honroable father want for his daughter? should she marry one man and live an honorable life with that one man or belong to the entire neighborhood and share her self with every stud that comes along? think of america as if it were your daughter. do you want muslims, known for their desire to rape anywhere near your daughter? they may have the right to walk past her but dont trust them to be alone with her. would you want your daughter to marry some one of her same faith or do you care about that? some things dont have to be law to be wrong. muslims being in this country is not right even if it is legal. If all of the laws we need have been made send congress home and stop paying them. If all of the laws that Congress has made are constitutional send the supreme court home. americans value their daughters, muslims dont even value their wives. just because there is no law against something does not mean that a law is not needed. Put american values on the table to be looked at then make your laws. in the absence of law use your values. the presence of muslims in this country is not a benefit to american values they intend to destroy those values. they are already demanding the use of sharria law in this country, that is an insult to our constitution. our constitution is for everybody sharria law is for muslims the two forms of law can not co exist for the same people. it is absolute that they have no desire too asimilate. everywhere they have invaded, when their numbers get large enough they demand they be allowed to use sharria law then as they grow even larger they demand that only sharria law be used. Article six clause two give it a read. sharria law can not exist in this country.
when a nation becomes TOLERANT of wrong doing – destruction will come.
Psalm 33:8 – 12
Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.
For He spoke and it was done; he commanded and it stood fast.
The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans pf the peoples of no effect.
The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of His heart to all generations.
BLESSED is the nation whos God is the Lord, the people He has chosen as His own inheritance.