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	<title>Comments on: Rest in Pieces &#8211; A Thought for Tisha B&#8217;Av</title>
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	<link>http://danielgordis.org/2010/07/19/rest-in-pieces-a-thought-for-tisha-bav/</link>
	<description>Daniel Gordis, whom  Alan Dershowitz has called “one of Israel’s most insightful observers,” writes and lectures throughout the world on Israeli society and the challenges facing the Jewish state.  He blogs at www.danielgordis.org.”  </description>
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		<title>By: Michael Harris</title>
		<link>http://danielgordis.org/2010/07/19/rest-in-pieces-a-thought-for-tisha-bav/comment-page-1/#comment-2581</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 01:25:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danielgordis.org/?p=1663#comment-2581</guid>
		<description>Daniel:

Evocative and meaningful words, as always.  But one phrase puzzled me: referring to Israel as &quot;the state that it (the international community) re-created&quot;.  
Israel was created as almost all other states were:  by the toil and the blood of its people.  Had the United Nations fought off the Arab armies in 1948, as they did the North Koreans in 1950, or even had they organized arms shipments to Israel, then they should indeed be giving the credit.  But all the international community really did was endorse the right of the Jewish people to self-determination.  Those who were there still had to fight to exercise that right-- and they fought essentially alone.  
Let&#039;s stop referring to the myth that the UN &quot;created&quot; the state of Israel.  If it did, then Israel also has a higher degree of obligation to the UN than other states do; and with a UN that has long since squandered whatever moral authority it once had, that&#039;s a dangerous fiction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel:</p>
<p>Evocative and meaningful words, as always.  But one phrase puzzled me: referring to Israel as &#8220;the state that it (the international community) re-created&#8221;.<br />
Israel was created as almost all other states were:  by the toil and the blood of its people.  Had the United Nations fought off the Arab armies in 1948, as they did the North Koreans in 1950, or even had they organized arms shipments to Israel, then they should indeed be giving the credit.  But all the international community really did was endorse the right of the Jewish people to self-determination.  Those who were there still had to fight to exercise that right&#8211; and they fought essentially alone.<br />
Let&#8217;s stop referring to the myth that the UN &#8220;created&#8221; the state of Israel.  If it did, then Israel also has a higher degree of obligation to the UN than other states do; and with a UN that has long since squandered whatever moral authority it once had, that&#8217;s a dangerous fiction.</p>
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		<title>By: MANNY JAKEL</title>
		<link>http://danielgordis.org/2010/07/19/rest-in-pieces-a-thought-for-tisha-bav/comment-page-1/#comment-2579</link>
		<dc:creator>MANNY JAKEL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danielgordis.org/?p=1663#comment-2579</guid>
		<description>MY DEAR RUTIMIZRACHI:
Unfortunately there is no such thing as a neon sign shining on the heads of palestinians.  My position is to just be on the safe side.  Imagine the sign and what it would say:
 I HATE JEWS.  I WOULD LOVE TO KILL THEM.  AND GIVEN THE CHANCE I WILL.  
That is the reality of the situation.  Anyone who believes otherwise does so at his own peril.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MY DEAR RUTIMIZRACHI:<br />
Unfortunately there is no such thing as a neon sign shining on the heads of palestinians.  My position is to just be on the safe side.  Imagine the sign and what it would say:<br />
 I HATE JEWS.  I WOULD LOVE TO KILL THEM.  AND GIVEN THE CHANCE I WILL.<br />
That is the reality of the situation.  Anyone who believes otherwise does so at his own peril.</p>
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		<title>By: rutimizrachi</title>
		<link>http://danielgordis.org/2010/07/19/rest-in-pieces-a-thought-for-tisha-bav/comment-page-1/#comment-2576</link>
		<dc:creator>rutimizrachi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 06:17:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danielgordis.org/?p=1663#comment-2576</guid>
		<description>This piece is deeply thoughtful, and almost &quot;right on.&quot;  Two small points trouble me, however.

My heart wants to believe that Khaled really does want peaceful coexistence.  I wish you had asked him, in response to his incredulity about hate against dead Jews, how one is supposed to relate to live Jews.  I felt the question hanging in the air after his remark.  As I said, I want very much to believe that many Arabs truly do want to live in peace as my neighbors.  But I remember a Jewish kablan friend relating a discussion he had with one of the Arab workers who was preparing a floor in a new Jewish home.  &quot;Ahmed,&quot; my friend asked, &quot;how do you feel about the whole Palestinian-Israeli conflict?  Does it bother you to be helping to build homes for Jews?&quot;  Ahmed continued lovingly polishing the newly-laid floor by hand.  Without looking up from his work, he answered, &quot;It doesn&#039;t bother me at all.  I am only waiting for the Jews to be driven our or killed.  Then, this will be my house.&quot;  So I remain cautious.  Hopeful -- but cautious.  I always wish that the Arabs who work all over my yishuv would have a neon sign above their heads:  &quot;I hate Jews and want them dead,&quot; or &quot;I have nothing against Jews.&quot;  It would make loving my fellow man so much easier.

I grew up believing that the US was solidly behind the fledgling Jewish State, at least at the beginning, and that Europe understood the need for the State as well in those days.  But the more history I study, the more I wonder if there were a full five minutes during which the commitment to a State for the Jews was seriously supported.

Color me increasingly cynical about anything but G-d&#039;s love of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This piece is deeply thoughtful, and almost &#8220;right on.&#8221;  Two small points trouble me, however.</p>
<p>My heart wants to believe that Khaled really does want peaceful coexistence.  I wish you had asked him, in response to his incredulity about hate against dead Jews, how one is supposed to relate to live Jews.  I felt the question hanging in the air after his remark.  As I said, I want very much to believe that many Arabs truly do want to live in peace as my neighbors.  But I remember a Jewish kablan friend relating a discussion he had with one of the Arab workers who was preparing a floor in a new Jewish home.  &#8220;Ahmed,&#8221; my friend asked, &#8220;how do you feel about the whole Palestinian-Israeli conflict?  Does it bother you to be helping to build homes for Jews?&#8221;  Ahmed continued lovingly polishing the newly-laid floor by hand.  Without looking up from his work, he answered, &#8220;It doesn&#8217;t bother me at all.  I am only waiting for the Jews to be driven our or killed.  Then, this will be my house.&#8221;  So I remain cautious.  Hopeful &#8212; but cautious.  I always wish that the Arabs who work all over my yishuv would have a neon sign above their heads:  &#8220;I hate Jews and want them dead,&#8221; or &#8220;I have nothing against Jews.&#8221;  It would make loving my fellow man so much easier.</p>
<p>I grew up believing that the US was solidly behind the fledgling Jewish State, at least at the beginning, and that Europe understood the need for the State as well in those days.  But the more history I study, the more I wonder if there were a full five minutes during which the commitment to a State for the Jews was seriously supported.</p>
<p>Color me increasingly cynical about anything but G-d&#8217;s love of us.</p>
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		<title>By: MANNY JAKEL</title>
		<link>http://danielgordis.org/2010/07/19/rest-in-pieces-a-thought-for-tisha-bav/comment-page-1/#comment-2565</link>
		<dc:creator>MANNY JAKEL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danielgordis.org/?p=1663#comment-2565</guid>
		<description>JACK STEINER&#039;S ANSWER:   COULD IT BE POSSIBLE THAT WE HAVE DISCOVERED HOW TO RID THE WORLD OF ANTI-SEMITISM.  SOLUTION: EVERYONE SHOULD LEARN AT A VERY YOUNG AGE TO BECOME A FIX-IT GUY.  SIMPLE.  OK JACK, BUT I HAVE HEARD OF STRANGER THINGS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JACK STEINER&#8217;S ANSWER:   COULD IT BE POSSIBLE THAT WE HAVE DISCOVERED HOW TO RID THE WORLD OF ANTI-SEMITISM.  SOLUTION: EVERYONE SHOULD LEARN AT A VERY YOUNG AGE TO BECOME A FIX-IT GUY.  SIMPLE.  OK JACK, BUT I HAVE HEARD OF STRANGER THINGS.</p>
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		<title>By: DavidM</title>
		<link>http://danielgordis.org/2010/07/19/rest-in-pieces-a-thought-for-tisha-bav/comment-page-1/#comment-2564</link>
		<dc:creator>DavidM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 15:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danielgordis.org/?p=1663#comment-2564</guid>
		<description>Beautiful response, but it misses two facts.  The first is that Israel is not populated by solely by European holocaust refugees.  There has always been a significant Jewish presence in Israel -- as demonstrated by numerous British and Turkish census counts over the past two centuries.  In addition, a huge percentage of Israel&#039;s Jewish population are descended from refugees from Arab countries.  The notion that that the presence of Jews in Israel was the result of attempting to resolve a European problem in which the Arab World had no role is simply false.

The second omission is the fact that the Arab population between the Jordan and the Mediterranean is largely descended from non-Palestinians who emigrated in during the twentieth century.  The notion that Jews have displaced Arabs who lived here for a thousand years is equally false.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beautiful response, but it misses two facts.  The first is that Israel is not populated by solely by European holocaust refugees.  There has always been a significant Jewish presence in Israel &#8212; as demonstrated by numerous British and Turkish census counts over the past two centuries.  In addition, a huge percentage of Israel&#8217;s Jewish population are descended from refugees from Arab countries.  The notion that that the presence of Jews in Israel was the result of attempting to resolve a European problem in which the Arab World had no role is simply false.</p>
<p>The second omission is the fact that the Arab population between the Jordan and the Mediterranean is largely descended from non-Palestinians who emigrated in during the twentieth century.  The notion that Jews have displaced Arabs who lived here for a thousand years is equally false.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob L. Wright</title>
		<link>http://danielgordis.org/2010/07/19/rest-in-pieces-a-thought-for-tisha-bav/comment-page-1/#comment-2562</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob L. Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 11:43:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danielgordis.org/?p=1663#comment-2562</guid>
		<description>Another excellent piece. Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another excellent piece. Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: livia bitton-jackson</title>
		<link>http://danielgordis.org/2010/07/19/rest-in-pieces-a-thought-for-tisha-bav/comment-page-1/#comment-2561</link>
		<dc:creator>livia bitton-jackson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 11:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danielgordis.org/?p=1663#comment-2561</guid>
		<description>May I point out that &quot;Palestinian&quot; for &quot;Arab&quot; is Arafat&#039;s invention in 1964. Until that time, especialy during the British Mandate, &quot;Palestinian&quot; referred to Jews. The Arabs refused to be called &quot;Palestinians.&quot; I can show you sources where Arab leaders declare that they are &quot;Arabs&quot; as opposed to &quot;Palestinians,&quot; which means &quot;Jews.&quot;
To whom does Palestine belong?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>May I point out that &#8220;Palestinian&#8221; for &#8220;Arab&#8221; is Arafat&#8217;s invention in 1964. Until that time, especialy during the British Mandate, &#8220;Palestinian&#8221; referred to Jews. The Arabs refused to be called &#8220;Palestinians.&#8221; I can show you sources where Arab leaders declare that they are &#8220;Arabs&#8221; as opposed to &#8220;Palestinians,&#8221; which means &#8220;Jews.&#8221;<br />
To whom does Palestine belong?</p>
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		<title>By: jack steiner</title>
		<link>http://danielgordis.org/2010/07/19/rest-in-pieces-a-thought-for-tisha-bav/comment-page-1/#comment-2560</link>
		<dc:creator>jack steiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 11:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danielgordis.org/?p=1663#comment-2560</guid>
		<description>Very interesting article Daniel. Manny said that he didn&#039;t believe people like Khaled still exist. Well he sounded very much like our old fixit guy,Mohammed. Maybe it&#039;s something about fixit guys. To reinforce the point however, I remember preparing my Year 12 class for the trip to Poland and asking why they wanted to go. One girl answered that she wanted to experience anti-semitism. It struck me that she never really had. 
For those absorbed in the conflict, the everyday realities are the issues. Resolvable issues. Ideologues on both sides prevent the rule of pragmatism. Problem is ideology also keeps us grounded, give us our  raison d&#039;etre. Today,for whatever reason,I now view the situation from abroad. Anti-semitism is rife and anti-Israel feeling is assumed. Scary times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting article Daniel. Manny said that he didn&#8217;t believe people like Khaled still exist. Well he sounded very much like our old fixit guy,Mohammed. Maybe it&#8217;s something about fixit guys. To reinforce the point however, I remember preparing my Year 12 class for the trip to Poland and asking why they wanted to go. One girl answered that she wanted to experience anti-semitism. It struck me that she never really had.<br />
For those absorbed in the conflict, the everyday realities are the issues. Resolvable issues. Ideologues on both sides prevent the rule of pragmatism. Problem is ideology also keeps us grounded, give us our  raison d&#8217;etre. Today,for whatever reason,I now view the situation from abroad. Anti-semitism is rife and anti-Israel feeling is assumed. Scary times.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Greenberg</title>
		<link>http://danielgordis.org/2010/07/19/rest-in-pieces-a-thought-for-tisha-bav/comment-page-1/#comment-2557</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Greenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 06:12:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danielgordis.org/?p=1663#comment-2557</guid>
		<description>Thank you for sharing this article.  As always, you are eloquent and thought provoking.

Questions regarding Israel&#039;s right to exist seem always to focus on ancient or continuous history (in the case of the affirmative) and European guilt for the holocaust (in the negative).

But, where is the discussion of the 100 years of nation building that led up to the creation of Israel?  It&#039;s not as though the Jewish presence just magically appeared because of the holocaust. Even before WWII there was a thriving Jewish community with schools and hospitals and an economy and a cultural life that had started in earnest in the 1860s and continued full steam, with legal land purchases, right up to the actual creation of the state.  

Doesn&#039;t the fact that hundreds of thousands of Jews moved to the area, purchased land and built a community, doesn&#039;t that give them a right to be there?  What about the Arabs that moved from Egypt and Syria and other parts of the Middle East?  Are their rights to live in the villages built by their grandparents also suspect because they originally came from elsewhere?

I suspect the idealogue is the intellectual.  He doesn&#039;t see the truth of history because he is so committed his vision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for sharing this article.  As always, you are eloquent and thought provoking.</p>
<p>Questions regarding Israel&#8217;s right to exist seem always to focus on ancient or continuous history (in the case of the affirmative) and European guilt for the holocaust (in the negative).</p>
<p>But, where is the discussion of the 100 years of nation building that led up to the creation of Israel?  It&#8217;s not as though the Jewish presence just magically appeared because of the holocaust. Even before WWII there was a thriving Jewish community with schools and hospitals and an economy and a cultural life that had started in earnest in the 1860s and continued full steam, with legal land purchases, right up to the actual creation of the state.  </p>
<p>Doesn&#8217;t the fact that hundreds of thousands of Jews moved to the area, purchased land and built a community, doesn&#8217;t that give them a right to be there?  What about the Arabs that moved from Egypt and Syria and other parts of the Middle East?  Are their rights to live in the villages built by their grandparents also suspect because they originally came from elsewhere?</p>
<p>I suspect the idealogue is the intellectual.  He doesn&#8217;t see the truth of history because he is so committed his vision.</p>
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		<title>By: Nimrod Tal</title>
		<link>http://danielgordis.org/2010/07/19/rest-in-pieces-a-thought-for-tisha-bav/comment-page-1/#comment-2556</link>
		<dc:creator>Nimrod Tal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 02:54:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danielgordis.org/?p=1663#comment-2556</guid>
		<description>The real question is why was this freak Zreik dreck invited to an Israeli conference. Inviting dreck like Zreik only legitimizes him. I believe that we have the right to the Land of Israel because the G-d of Israel promised it to us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real question is why was this freak Zreik dreck invited to an Israeli conference. Inviting dreck like Zreik only legitimizes him. I believe that we have the right to the Land of Israel because the G-d of Israel promised it to us.</p>
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