http://www.jcrcny.org/what-we-do/israel-international-affairs/flotilla-info.html

Victoria: to your statement about “The flotilla is the latest example, and now the story is that people were executed with multiple shots to the back of the head. Is this true? Is it a lie? I don’t know. If it is true, why was it done? Was it really necessary?” I don’t know how your Hebrew is, but even if it’s non-existent, listen to the voices of the Israeli soldiers on the flotilla and tell me if this sounded like a massacre (link below). Also, hard to believe you’ve really done your research, based on the arguements you make (or I should say based on the lies you are so bent on believing are true.) You seem to be eating up, addressing and obsessing over the same type of lies spread by the Jew-haters and non-critical Israel critics, the same type of lies you so vehemently attribute to “Fox News”. Why do you so gladly eat up the lies and still haven’t found any literature on to see that the statements you make about the flotilla are, in fact, lies at worst and completely unconfirmed information, at best? This is a question, you need to ask yourself. From everything you write, it sounds like your research was done on the hate sites. Why do Israel- and Jew-haters hold more authority for you? Interesting choice, don’t you think? I don’t blame you, they do suck one in emotionally – really get the blood boiling, if you enjoy that kind of thing. But if you want the truth, as you say, you need to look elsewhere. In any case, if you want to hear raw emotions, listen to the Israeli soldiers’ voices, and the shear fear in those voices of young boys, and tell me, do you still believe this was a massacre on that flotilla?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFGuwUGaI9o

You are right about that, for sure. I am one Jewish person and I must have three different opinions within myself!

What I am learning as I continue to read is quite a bit more about Islam, and the “Islamification” of Europe. I can tell you that what is going in Europe and particularly in France and the Netherlands, is really not known or understood in most of the USA. As I read more about this it is affecting my perspective on the situation Israel finds itself in.

I will read the Jerusalem Post, thanks.

Thank you for your input. I am Jewish, yes, and like many other American Jews raised in a secular manner, I am reaching a place where I have to understand what my Jewishness means to me. Right now I’m working for an online company that caters to Jewish organizations and synagogues, so I am probably more steeped in Judaism than at any other time in my life. My boss is always giving me books to read, I know he wants to “bring me over” to the more observant side. I am open to all information right now, and I want to learn as much as I can about Israel.

Your question about why the IDF should defend itself stands out to me. I will give you a very good reason why they should defend themselves. BECAUSE PEOPLE BELIEVE THE CHARGE. The reason I post so vehemently on this site is because, as I’ve said, I’ve been dealing with the blow back here in the states over what happened on the flotilla. I’ve spent many days online just defending Israel against the neo-nazi scumbags who are screaming their hatred all over the place. People tell me it is pointless to do this, but I can’t agree. I don’t want these people to dominate the discussion. I don’t want them to influence more people against the Jews.

I am saying that we need to hear all the most reasonable voices from Israel, louder and far more often than we do. Jews in the states NEED to hear from our Jewish family in Israel, we need to create a dialog that helps all of us to understand what is going on there.

A lot of the voices on this thread have helped me to understand more.

Also, you make the point that if we are Jewish, we are sisters. I think this is part of my problem. I feel that way as well, and my character is such that when I feel my family is under attack, I defend with ferocity. Maybe it’s even more so because I’m Jewish! But being a person who also wants peace, and works toward peace in the world and in my own life, this is very difficult. Because the Jews are under attack, and I want to defend them ferociously! But NOT BLINDLY. What I’m saying is, I need information. I need to be able to defend Israel from a more intelligent place than I’m currently standing. I also need to understand the Israeli mindset and how people feel about what their own government is doing in Israel.

If the mindset of most Israelis is that war is the only way, the Palestinians should be purged, and the American Jews should keep their mouth shut about whatever Israel does . . . that is not a position I probably will able to support, and I will feel my hands are tied in defending Israel. I will have to sit back and watch the hatred grow, feeling helpless.

I don’t think this is the case, however, and I just want to call out to Israeli Jews to keep the dialog open, with everyone. American Jews, Palestinians, everyone even if they are seen as the “enemy.” The only enemy I really see is ignorance and an unwillingness to forgive, to keep our hearts open, to listen.

The Jewish scripture does indeed call us G-d’s chosen, however, almost always when this expression is used the rest of the scripture is left out. I am not going to quote the passages but do read: Isaiah 10:17; 40:6-7; 49:06; 51:04 and 60 the whole chapter. My favorite of the prophets is Micah chapter 6, verses 8 and 9. The Christian scripture is Matthew 5:14 & 16. However keep in mind that it is claimed Jesus was a Jew and is preaching to other Jews. The command is to be a “light unto the nations” with loving kindness, justice, and mercy. It does not allow us to commit suicide. Only the Christians are to “turn the other cheek,” which they haven’t been doing much of lately where Israel is concerned, but sure do with the Muslim extremists. Talk about kissing behinds!

To Judith and Victoria, if you are both Jewish girls then you are my sisters, so keep it nice. You both have interesting things to say even if of differing opinions. I want to tell a little story here. Many moons ago, my daughter (then age was visiting her dad and grandmother. They were in the car squabbling about something, with my daughter sitting between them. My daughter said, “When I do that, my other grandmother says I’m being argumentative”. Her Belarus Gram replied with a hug and smile, “If you didn’t do that then you wouldn’t be one of us”.

I agree with Victoria about Fox news, and include most other news media as well. And Victoria, study up on the current Turkish government/leaders. Indeed they lie. It’s inane for Turkey to head an “investigation” into the “raid”, like turning the fox loose in a hen house. Another Goldstone report. For several years I watched news from 4:00 in the afternoon until 9:00 each night. I started with ABC World News; local news; NBC Nightly news; BBC World News; CBS Evening News; Washington Week and McLaughlin. Meet the Press on Sunday mornings, Fox and CNN I could pick up from the Internet. All of them without exception seemed to echo each other with the same versions of the news. Fox and BBC with outright lies, just different ones. I find newspapers about the same. Most of them picking up stories from the associated press and the analysts seem to be the real power behind shaping the news. It is understandable that American Jews are confused; including friend “David”, and when they toss in their own 2 cents it becomes a squabble between Jews, who should be seeking to form a ring of support around Israel until the real truth be known. I also find fewer and fewer people who have any knowledge of history. Not ancient history or modern.

Each week the news is a big surprise to them and they believe what was said today, not what was known even as far back as 5 years. Especially where Israel is concerned. If anyone believed the claim of the Turks of assassinations, they have a sad reality of the whole picture. The IDF wouldn’t do such a thing with their own morality, plus cameras rolling from both their own and those on the ships. Give me one good reason the IDF should have to defend themselves from such a stupid charge?I rarely watch TV news any more, or shows like “The View”, etc., it raises my blood pressure. I read newspapers and blogs from around the world on the Internet and try to glean a bit of truth. What I don’t do is read anti-Israel news, blogs or Internet offerings. You cannot get eggs from foxes. There is enough venomous responses to legitimate offerings such as Dr. Gordis’ to know what would be offered.

I know of a Jewish person that may have helped Obama write his Cairo speech. I printed out the entire text of that speech and on the first page were 6 historical errors! When I asked about this, I was told I just didn’t understand what purpose the speech was for, and no explanation was forth coming. At that moment, I realized that perhaps I might have voted for the wrong person if he were that ignorant of history. BTW, it’s been pointed out that 70% of American Jews voted for Obama, but our other choice was an elderly man with medical problems who chose an ignorant, bigoted, female for a running mate. Most of us who were behind Hillary Clinton were dismayed when Obama won the nomination. The GOP made the mistake of thinking we would vote for any female regardless of qualifications. So please Israelis forgive us for Obama, he walked the walk, talked the talk, and we fell for it. I also think he has been convinced by the powers behind the throne he has no choice but to cater to the oil interests.

When I said please don’t give Israel any more bad PR by relating it to Fox News, I am explaining exactly how the Left in the USA feels about Fox News. They don’t trust it, they feel it is a force of lies, hatred and fear. In truth, they absolutely despise it and if they could, they would shut it down immediately and forever.

That said, I also have serious problems with the Left wing icons of news — in particular Amy Goodman, who speaks against Israel regularly. I think Amy’s show, Democracy Now, is responsible in large part for much of the anti-Israel sentiment among young Left leaning people. Noam Chomsky is her regular guest, and you know how he speaks against Israel all the time, calling it an apartheid state.

There is very little in the way of truly fair and balanced news available today, we all have to learn as much as we can and sort through it using our own discretion and intelligence.

If we can keep from insulting and attacking each other on these threads, I think this kind of dialog online is among our greatest hopes for furthering our understanding of the world we’re living in.

You are completely wrong about me, so whatever is motivating your paranoia, it’s not helping you see the truth.

I have no idea why you want to defend Fox News, but I will speak the truth about what Fox News is — and this has NOTHING to do with Israel. They are supportive of Israel for the same reason a lot of conservatives are. It’s not the ideological position that I have a problem with, please understand that.

What the problem is, is that Fox New is a propaganda machine that spills out lies all day long. They simply lie, constantly, about everything, in order to shape the nation the way THEY see fit. And they do it all under the banner of “Fair and Balanced” which is the ultimate insult to injury. These lies, this constant attack on people THEY see don’t agree with, is damaging the very social fabric of the USA, creating more polarization, morei misinformed, angry people, and an entre generation of people who don’t know what an actual NEWS show should be — actually fair and balanced!

Judith, there have been movies made about how Fox News lies. People have considered creating some sort of legislation to deal with the problem. If you are defending Fox News, I can only assume you don’t actually watch it very much. If you watch it and defend it . . . well, you are among millions who do, and I wish there was some way to get you and the others to see the truth — but look at the vicious way you defend it and attack me!

Judith, my response was not in the slightest bit “full of hatred of Israel and the US.” Your attack on me is baseless, and it just makes me sad to see someone so willing to jump to extremes when confronted by truths you don’t want to hear — which is what you accuse me of doing, but really it is you.

I would hope in the future you can avoid these kinds of attacks and take a moment to get some perspective before you start accusing someone of being a spy, hating their country, and lying about who they are.

And yes, Victoria is my name.

We cannot do that. Israel is called to Life. It is not a suggestion; it is a Commandment from The Creator God of Heaven and Earth, and the King of Israel.

Therefore, the appropriate next step for Israel to take, is to judiciously state the facts which are that our enemies do not wish to deal righteously with us, and refuse to rescind their vow to destroy Israel. Therefore, they are in DEFAULT of upholding their part of the proposals arranged by the Nations and which Israel has participated in. Israel
must therefore back out of any and all Peace Agreements with the PA, since they
have abrogated these Accords and instead have permitted known terrorists to take overt and covert positions in their governments.

I would propose that the people who currently live in the Gaza Strip be absorbed into the United States, Jordan and the European Union as a token of goodwill by those far more capable to further the cause for Peace, than Israel.

We can no longer participate in the charade. Additionaly, since these Nations
are so hell bent on our dealing with the devil, I say, let them show us how. Take them to yourselves and lead the way!

If I were to produce the list of Israeli innocent victims who were murdered since the Infitifada began, this would supply
the proof text of my point.

Israel is for Israeli’s and for humans who
seek to live together in Peace with the children of Israel, the chosen of God; The King of Israel is His Name.

Please contact me if you would like to help me write up the proposition to withdraw from our agreements which are
fully abrogated by the current residents of G’DS LAND.. for the Land belongs to Elohim and He has chosen Israel to inhabit the land. I stand with Israel and the cause of truth in the world.

Davida Geller Rosenberg
Davida.Expressit@gmail.com