An old high school friend, who’s taken great exception to a couple of my most recent Jerusalem Post columns, has been telling me of late on my Facebook page how out of touch with American Jewry I am. He let loose again today. Here’s what he had to say:
Hey Danny….yet again a misguided Israeli political and military mission with regard to Gaza that American Jewry will be asked to stand by and support. All over the news Israel will be referred to as “the Jewish State” as worldwide condemnation will pour in. As a Jew I will be on the defensive despite the fact that I have no vote and no say in whatever the politicians in Israel decide. Again, you will no doubt ask for solidarity by Jewish folk worldwide and we will answer for Israeli decision-making. I love Israel as my religious base, but the policies do not reflect my peace loving values. I support Israel with bonds and donations and visits, but the thriving American Jewish experience is independent of it.
OK, there’s a lot there, and most of it I won’t respond to now. But this is one of those moments when I don’t think we have the luxury of writing a column over days, printing it out and editing it, sleeping on it and editing it again. Too much is happening, and people are too hurting and too confused for something not to be said.
To be sure, there’s much more that we don’t know than we do. We’ll learn a lot in the days and weeks to come. But we do know that this was a tragic day and an excruciatingly painful one in Israel. At the fruit market, and at the dry cleaners, I asked people working there how they were, and all I got was a sigh. And then, Yom kasheh. A tough day. They’re going to eat us alive.
They will, indeed, eat us alive. It’s taken a full day for the Israeli government to say anything coherent at all, riots are breaking out in Israeli Arab towns, Israelis in Istanbul have been warned by the Foreign Ministry not to leave their hotel rooms, and the international community is raining down condemnation.
But I jump to conclusions very different than those of my high school friend, and I responded to him in language very close to this:
David, we couldn’t disagree more strongly. Israel’s actions were “misguided”? Let’s take that first. Were there tragic outcomes? Obviously. But “misguided”? Gaza is under the malicious and cynical rule of a terror organization sworn on Israel’s destruction, that is holding an Israeli soldier captive in contravention of all international treaties, and that oppresses its own population while even Palestinian witnesses there acknowledge that there is no food shortage. Given Hamas’ military objectives, Israel would be crazy not to check what’s going in. But Israel had already pledged to pass on any humanitarian goods after they were inspected, and told the boats the same thing. So, no, I don’t think that the idea of stopping the boats was misguided.
What we know is that on five of the ships, the commandos (among them friends of our kids, by the way) boarded the boats, and there was no resistance and no fighting.
On one boat, however, the first soldiers to land on the boat were attacked with metal rods and knives. There’s video of it. It’s playing all over Israeli and all over the internet. In some cases, soldiers’ weapons were stolen and used against them. One was stabbed, apparently in the abdomen. Another was tossed from a desk and trampled when he landed. There were a handful of commandos there, and 600 “peace activists. On Israeli news tonight, the soldiers on helicopters taking them to the hospital were interviewed. They descended the ropes, they said, planning to talk the “activists” into going to Ashdod. Their weapons were not in their hands, but strapped to their backs. “We went into war,” one in his 30′s said bitterly tonight, “and all we had were toys.” They were beaten, trampled, shot (yes, there were bullet injuries) but only after forty minutes of combat did they resort to live five. They were going to get lynched if they didn’t fight back, they said.
Was I there? No. Do I know what really happened? No. But do I trust these kids and their officers? Yes, I do.
As for “peace activists,” David, how much do you know about the IHH? It’s a terror support group, supported by Turkey (among others) and it was ent to provoke. If they just wanted the goods to get to Gaza, they could have agreed to transfer them to an Israeli ship, or to unload them in Ashdod, as the Navy personnel asked them to. But they didn’t want that. They just wanted to break the blockade. Why? For food? Even a few Palestinian journalists with some guts are reporting that there’s no humanitarian food crisis in Gaza. No, it wasn’t about food. They want the blockade broken so that after that, non-humanitarian items (read weapons) could brought in. Why should Israel allow that? So that they can be better armed the next time we have to send our kids into Gaza?
As for “being on the defensive,” you will be on the defensive only because you totally don’t get it. For if you did get it, you wouldn’t feel that way. There’s only one country anywhere on the planet about which there’s a conversation about whether it has a right to exist. Do you ever think about why that is? What, the fate of the Palestinians is worse than that of aborigines in Australia? Or people in the Congo, or Rwanda? Why all the attention on Israel? Do you really not get it? You think that New Zealand just coincidentally decided this week to make kosher slaughtering illegal? You think it’s really about humanitarian commitments? Come on.
No, David, you really don’t have to defend Israel. No one’s asking you to. We know that it’s too late to expect many Americans like you to assume we’re right before you assume we’re wrong. As we look out at Jews across the world, we’re just assessing who gets Jewish history, and who’s so thoroughly intellectually assimilated that they’re actually embarrassed that that Jews don’t have to continue to be victims. I’m horrified by what happened on the ship, and I’ll be shocked if after all is in, we find that Israel made no mistakes. (This was pretty clearly an intelligence failure, at the very minimum, sending those soldiers into something for which they had not at all been prepared or armed.) But if that had been my kid on the ship, and he’d gone in to prevent the blockade from being broken, but had no intention of fighting, and had then been attacked, I’d want him to defend himself. No matter what. I’d want him to come home whole, because that’s part of the new Jewish reality that this country is supposed to make possible.
The loss of life is tragic. So are the injuries to soldiers, including serious head wounds. But most tragic of all is that the world is so willing to be blinded to what’s really going on here.
At the end of this excruciating day in Israel, at least given what I know at this moment, I’m saddened but not apologetic. I’m not surprised by most of the world’s reactions. But I haven’t lost sight of who provoked this, and why they did that. But you’re a very smart guy. Why have you?
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Dr. Daniel Gordis is Senior Vice President of the Shalem Center, where he is also a senior fellow. The author of numerous books on Jewish thought and currents in Israel...
The Jewish State must end, say its enemies, from intellectuals like Tony Judt to hate-filled demagogues like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Even average Israelis are wondering if they wouldn't be better off somewhere else. 
Jews who are traitors (left-wingers usually) should be excommunicated ,but because we have no Pope, can not be thrown out.Too bad.The Nazis recognized that the assimilated Jews of Germany were just as deserving of the gas chambers. Will we ever learn? Psychologically speaking ,most of these apologists just ache t o be fully accepted and loved by the world.These are the supposed humanitarians who don’t even protect their own people.I have never voted Republican except for our governor of California(mistake)and I am ashamed I did not recognize that Obama is an unabashed supporter of Moslems due to his personal history. Some persons of mixed ancestry or races have personal axes to grind. It’s sad but these individuals are the racists because they see life through bitter and distorted glasses.Most Caucasians have learned that racism is stupid and counterproductive towards creating a better society, but some of the embittered victims refuse to let go of their hatreds.I am tired of liberals making excuses for vicious hate groups that exist to get revenge on others. Obama is not a centrist and I now understand why he was associated with Rev.Wright. Wake up you weak-minded liberal Jews. You need to be more objective. Jews who supported the Bolsheviks did so with good intentions but eventually woke up. Do not contribute to Israel’s problems, but stand firm with the one ethical country in the Middle East.
Surprise surprise
At the begining of this year (january) Turkish convoy tried entering gaza true Egypt which didt alowed them. Egyp elowed the to dock at AL ARISH port and then there were riots 50 people enjured and one egyptian poleoficer killed.
There r very few videos but u can look it on youtube.
Ifound anather video of this insident how jordans dont alow the aid come true.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etJ_A-kE4mI&feature=related
look for ather videos u can see there alot of violence.
I’m 55 and grew up watching “Exodus” with some frequency. So I’m greatly touched by that movie (Daniel like myself has bemoaned it seems meaningless to the younger generation.) It showed the English and their duplicity, how some Arab leaders were looking for peace and the violence of Stern and Irgun.
When I was in Israel in 1972 &73 there was a feeling amongst by most Palestinians that the Six Day War was the best thing that happened to them. They were living in a democracy and the economy was bringing more $’s than they ever saw before. Than came the PLO the PLFP and various alphabet soups advocating for Israel’s destruction and a Palestine state. If Israel had surrendered all the land they conquered back than it would have just reverted back to the Arab states they conquered it from and there would be no Palestine.
In the interim Israel has cut the head off of much of the Palestinian leadership; perhaps a good thing in the beginning but now has given birth to a multi-headed snake that you don’t know with which to deal.
The Hammas are very successful at propaganda-they can make this their Exodus moment. One writer suggested an independent Gaza-good start. Let’s let them have an independent Palestine and let them manage their affairs and let us pray they’re good neighbours but if not then let them feel our wrath.
BTW I also propose a moratorium on allowing religious parties to run anywhere in the Mid-East including Israel as the results seem to be creating theocracies rather than democracies.
Stephen Gurevitch
1.As Israeli (i was born i Belarus)
2.AS Israeli Ex-IDF officer (now in reserv)
3.As One who belong to left wing of israeli politics.
4.As a person who dream of peace.
I agree with u.
Bouth sides made mistakes.
But Israel today is not tritend farly by world press, every conflict in israel get one sided press.
Did u know that IDF as every ather army have its objects and one off thoese object in west bank is – TO ALLOW PALESTINIANS NORMAL LIFE AS POSIBLE. As officer thats what i had to teach my soldiers. I spent 4 years at Gaza and West bank during the scoud itifada, and i say this proudly that no army in the world would act as IDF. Every soldier in every chek post has the right to think and even during biggest operations to think and make desitions that r not in the best interest of israel if he think its for humanitarian reasons.I as a young platoon comander sent soldiers to jail for taking candy from palestinian couse me and my comanders undertood that it is wrong couse the do it of fear from us.
I spend 1 mounth in the midlle of Hevron in some apartment that was being built by palestinians we used ut as a base camp for operations (it was nessery at the time) WE didnt even used the water from the building and brought it with us every day. At the end of the mounth IDF paid (to the oener) for this mounth we have been there, and agaid i say we had to be there at the time.
at the year 2001 i served at gaza borders and every day 200-300 toused wokers enterd israel untill the summer 2001 first rockets started to fall on us.i remmeber the first days we had to sleep with our body armour on us becouse of this. only then israel started buldozing the houses and plantetions near the border where thouse rockets were fired from.
Ofcourse mistakes been made.i hope i didnt made mistakes that couse lifes.
I hope there will be peace some day it is in bouth sides interest.
Last thing- i served near Ramallah there is a small village called Tibeh there is a bruary i some times buy theire bear in jaffa. I hope one day i could go there agaid as a civilian ant drink it there.
sorry for my english
Alright already. We’re Right! So, the next
thing to do is to wash our face and hands,
comb our hair and face facts.
My proposal is to declare the peace treaties, negotiations, and all coercion by the U.S.
Clinton- Bush- Ombama to be exercises in
stupidity bordering on INSANITY.
Facts are, that due to the REFUSAL OF THE
PALESTENIAN AUTHORITY TO RESCIND, REMOVE AND REWRITE THEIR CHARTER WHICH DECLARES
AN AFFIRMATION TO SEE THE COMPLETE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL, AND WHEREBY WE
SEE 7000 ROCKETS ALREADY LAUNCHED WITH
INTENT TO KILL INNOCENT ISRAELI CITIZENS;
THAT ISRAEL MUST DECLARE THAT THE PA, AND
THEIR SUPPORT OF HAMAS, A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION WHICH THEIR OWN ARAB CITIZENS
VOTED INTO POWER, TO BE PROOF POSITIVE THAT THE ” Palestenian occupants” have not
shown any intention to uphold their end of
the perverbial BARGAIN.
Israel must present this breach, along with
other breaches I have recorded in a separate document), to the PA, the Hamas, the U.S and the U.N. and the EU….
and tell them the rules of all negotiations have been breached and by default, there is no peace agreement with the PA.
As such, we should prepare to ask the Untied States and Europe to see if they can do something.. with them. We seek to
see them be deported from the land of Israel.
simple is, as simple does.
work with the facts friends, work with the facts.
Contact Davida Geller Rosenberg
Davida.Expressit@gmail. com
Thanks for your clear and concise words. Hopefully this will wake some people up.
“FOG IN CHANNEL, CONTINENT CUT OFF”
“ISRAEL UNITED IN SUPPORT OF FLOTILLA ATTACK; WORLD ISOLATED”
Growing up I remember very well the Viet Nam war -how America was condemned for being there and in particular they were roundly condemned for something known as the My Lai Massacre. They put twenty-six officers on trial for that but only one a Wm Calley was found guilty. Some Americans wanted him exonerated saying he was being persecuted.
Ariel Sharon had his moment with the Phalange and never was convicted of his crimes in allowing the massacres that took place during his watch.
When wrongs are done you will get movements that suggest “America Love it or Leave it” or solidarity with IDF. In my life I do many wrongs for which I need to apologize to think an institution or country doesn’t make multiple mistakes which have vastly greater impact is incredulous. You have to look at the nature of the people in countries. The Americans are by nature a loud obnoxious bunch who thinks their way is the only right way-they compensate for this by being generous and open and as a Canadian I’m glad to overlook their faults and love them for their good.
The IDF has a mandate to keep civilian harm to an absolute minimum. Does it succeed? Not always. Do you condemn Israel and the IDF when the IDF has either frustrated individuals or thugs in its membership? No but you condemn the act and try to insure it from not happening again.
Jews have a long history of not having problems with Arabs or Muslims but rather with Christians and their various Inquisitions and pogroms.
Muslims and Christians have the history of the Crusades.
The creation of the State of Israel has caused problems between Jews and their Arab brethren. Do we do away with Israel and than see peace in the Mid-East? I strongly suggest no. What we do is acknowledge “yes” the Pales tines have some right to feel ripped off. What the Palestinians have to acknowledge was there never was a free and independent state of Palestine.
The British Empire? Collapsed. The rise of America? Fallen; broken by their banking system. The rising powers? China and India. What could be the strongest force out there? Jewish technology married with Arab oil wealth
Shalom and come together right now.
Stephen
Short story:
Israeli soldier shot palestinian camel without good reason. This soldier went to jail and the army bought this palestinian 2 Camels.
It happend last weak.
Israel did many thing wrong but its truely want peace.
I dont remmember who said that
“palestinians never missed a chance to miss a chance”
1.1948 – didnt exapt the un resolution.
2.1995 with rabin
3. 2000 With Barak in Camp david (he gave it all to palestinians)
4.2008 with Olmeret (best ofer they can ever get) 96 % of their teritories and ather 4 exchange of teritories
First off I want to thank Ziv for his comments-to me he represents what is right in Israel and gives me hope.
Stephen
Short story:
Israeli soldier shot Palestinian camel without good reason. This soldier went to jail and the army bought this Palestinian 2 Camels.
It happend last weak.
It will be funny (?) if this week more Palestinians show up with their sickest camel and try to endanger its life in an Israeli soldier’s presence.
Israel did many thing wrong but its truely want peace
True. Also even though high unemployment has caused an increase in encouragement in the Palestinian camp to raise martyrs I do think the majority of Palestinians recognize Israel isn’t going to go away so they’re better off having peace. Actually to me the biggest danger to peace in the Mid-East are the Christians and Jews who think we need a Holy War to hasten the Messiah or Second Coming.
I dont remmember who said that
“palestinians never missed a chance to miss a chance”
I believe it was first Abba Eban and than echoed many times thereafter
1.1948 – didnt exapt the un resolution
True. Imagine if the US was given an UN resolution to give one of their states to Mexico? As Jews this is the fact we don’t acknowledge, we cry we are entitled to a homeland for ourselves and certainly no land made better sense than Israel (ok Miami was a close second) but if you don’t think it was guilt (something called the Holocaust) and apathy towards the Arabs (British Petroleum products and their like thought they could set rigs anywhere with immunity-would that ever happen again?) that we got it
2.1995 with rabin
3. 2000 With Barak in Camp david (he gave it all to palestinians)
4.2008 with Olmeret (best ofer they can ever get) 96 % of their teritories and ather 4 exchange of teritories
In fairness to any Palestinian leader anything they acquiesce to besides the total destruction of Israel is that they didn’t get enough. This is why Palestine has to be created by Israel unilaterally and this is why it has to be continuous so they can get from the Gaza to the West Bank without touching on Israeli territory. Whether it’s any of the three above offers or something else it has to be so that the UN has nothing in it to condemn it.
However what the Palestinians have to recognize that they may be welcome tourists in the same manner that Israelis are in Egypt that “The Dome on the Rock” or any religious thing in Jerusalem is in Israeli hands-they got Mecca and Medina.
Some fact people forgot or didnt know -
Israel alrady made “safe passage” from gaza to west bank – i know that couse i live near this road .it was made in late 90s i think.
Its road from Erez near Gaza to Tarkumia.
It was used for some time (i think).
The exampe of US givin one of its state not so good couse there was never in human history state of Palestine and the origin of the name palestine has nothin to do with Palestinians (historical fact u probably know).
Historical documant that talk of palestine(population) before 1948 includes Jordan so the numbers of arabs in Israeli (modern) borders were much lesser than many think.
Bottom line we as Jews were able to convince the “righteousness” of our claim to the State of Israel by selling them the idea we were the only people that didn’t have their own home. Germans had Germany, Italians had Italy etc. This was a somewhat false argument as actually Germany was a combo of Franks, the Saxons, the Swabians and the Bavarians at the least and who had they displaced?
For that matter, what is a Jew? Certainly the way Rabbinate is behaving in Israel they’re excluding lots of people making a claim to Judaism. When did the Rabbinate get such dictatorial powers? I grew up thinking Rabbi meant teacher. Are we becoming Catholic and giving them “Papal” powers?
For Jews to have Israel because of biblical promise-well that’s only to happen when the Messiah comes. So while there were Jews always in Palestine they were certainly outnumbered by an Arab presence even three years after the Balfour declaration Jews were not even 20% of the population. Presently, the Jewish population will be again out-numbered by the Arab population because of birth rates this is why we need them to have a Palestinian state.
As Jews we must be grateful there is Israel and not allow it to perish. We should be proud of what has been accomplished and is being accomplished there. As stated if we have a right historically to Israel than it’s via divine right and I don’t see any Messiah at present.
Jews took an area that was a dessert and made it bloom, they introduce modernity and democracy something still mostly rare in that part of the planet. This however doesn’t justify its presence anymore than being white in North America justifies our dominance over the aboriginal population.
History is most often written by the victors. How am I to go back to where I came from when I’m where I came from and how is an Israeli to go back to where he came from when Israel is where he came from?
To argue against a Palestine State is to deny that Israel should be. To negotiate it-I’ve said and will repeat –next to impossible so it might just be on Israel to create it. Make sure it includes a road from Erez near Gaza to Tarkumia.
A provocative article, going viral in the US of A and which Rabbi Gordis may soon somment on:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/jun/10/failure-american-jewish-establishment/
Next year I’ll be 90, I hope. I was born in Turkey of Russian fugitives — one a communist, the other a white guard. I’m a WW2 veteran and I’ve had experience and cynicism enough to shed all judgements about the rationalized depths to which Israeli society has fallen, vis a vis Palestinians and vice versa.
So facts, shmacts … do what it takes to survive, or the ‘big picture’ will fade unseen. Suffice it to say that now it’s only a simple matter of the survival of a Jewish state, adrift like a raft of flotsam in the middle of an ocean full of sharks.
I’m for Israel, WHATEVER IT TAKES !!!
Some part from -Code of Conduct – IDF
Human Dignity – “The IDF and its soldiers are obligated to protect human dignity. Every human being is of value regardless of his or her origin, religion, nationality, gender, status or position.”
Human Life – “The IDF servicemen and women will act in a judicious and safe manner in all they do, out of recognition of the supreme value of human life. During combat they will endanger themselves and their comrades only to the extent required to carry out their mission.”
Purity of Arms – “The soldier shall make use of his weaponry and power only for the fulfillment of the mission and solely to the extent required; he will maintain his humanity even in combat. The soldier shall not employ his weaponry and power in order to harm non-combatants or prisoners of war, and shall do all he can to avoid harming their lives, body, honor and property.”
This is what every israeli soldier have to learn in their first weak in the army and have it on him all time.
They have to act by this code and refuse any order given against this code.
I will tell it to you straight, as an American Jew. There is a fast rising river of hatred in America against the Jews, and all of us ignore it at our peril. Everything Israel does that results in death of “innocent” people (and you know what I mean by that), raises the waters higher. At this point I find it totally offensive that Israeli Jews would tell American Jews that it isn’t our problem what Israel does. Yes IT IS OUR PROBLEM. The anti-semitism is roiling under the surface of America and it is increasingly breaching the surface.
Please. We have to change this. It doesn’t matter that we will always have our enemies, that is obvious. What matters is that we show ourselves to be a force of light in the world. If we can’t do that, we are in serious trouble. Israel has a major PR problem and we need a serious effort to fix it. Stop acting like the rest of the world doesn’t matter. Stop acting like Jews in America are separate from you. We are not.
I’m nauseated by what I have to deal with every single day. My politics are basically progressive, but it is exactly from the “left” wing in America that the anti-Israel sentiment is coming. You are losing your support from the Left — it is almost gone, do you realize that?
Look at the Left wing news sources online — they are publishing all sorts of things against Israel, some of which are barely veiled hate-speech against the Jews.
I want to work against this like so many others but WE NEED ISRAEL TO WORK WITH US.
When you bungle things to the extent that you did with the flotilla, it’s a nightmare here. The reports are coming out now that people were shot execution style. There is no word from Israel. What are American Jews supposed to say to this?
Now Helen Thomas and her remarks are fueling even more the fires of righteous anger against Israel and the Jews.
We need a very serious and reasonable movement toward peace to emerge vocally within Israel that American Jews can champion. The Palestinians have long been used by the Arab states as pawns — but that strategy is WORKING. The world is outraged over Gaza. How long do you think this can last. What do you plan to do about it??
American Jews on the Left no longer know how to speak about Israel without sounding like they’re defending a military apartheid state. What can we do here?
Victoria,
Your concern that Israel’s Flotilla response has raised your fear level that anti-Semitism will break out is America is well noted among the liberal left. I am mortified at the thought that you might be denied seating in the poshiest restaurants for your Shabbat Dinner because you are a Jew. It can get worse, your car might get egged, perhaps you will denied a job because they have “enough Jews”, you might be named called, perhaps denied the ability to live in the “right” neighborhood because you are a Jew and the non-Jews have had enough of the “Jews.” Our concern for your terrible suffering must be considered. Israelis, the Jewish, Muslim and Christians who live there, must be made to give in so that you will be secure. Israel must permit more uninspected cargoes to come in, with supplies of murderous weapons, to Gaza. Food, electricity, water, medicine is not lacking in Gaza. They must permit missiles, weapons of mass destruction and hate to be imported and hence exported. Israelis must commit SUICIDE, have their sons and daughters murdered, dismembered, attacked wherever they go to be sure you will not be called “Jew” or spat upon. You certainly prefer that Israeli soldiers die so you can feel secure when you leave synagogue for your annual beat your breast before God on Yom Kippur and know that no one slashed your tires. Remember all you have to be in shul for is Yizkor, the early bird at Woo Shi Chu’s begins at 1:30 pm. I think you and your Progressive friends are correct – let the Israelis die – so you won’t have to know you are a Jew – no matter how much you pretend otherwise. By the way did you send your yearly donation to the Federation yet? I know it did not go to JNF.
Jerry, I understand your feelings, but the truth is your comments show a deep disdain for American Jews that actually surpasses a lot of the Jew hatred coming from our local anti-semites. Bravo.
Does it really serve anyone’s purpose to ignore what I am telling you, the reality here in America, where the Left is mounting their call to pull money away from Israel? I am regularly besieged by earnest wide-eyed activists in parking lots trying to get me to sign petitions to stop funding Israel, every single day there are radio shows with people calling in saying Americans must no longer support Israel — but I should ignore this? This is not important? Why, because you don’t want to hear it? Because you would rather insult me?
Your comments are not only full of hate, but they are utterly pointless. Did I say “give in”? Did I say commit suicide? Is that all you can hear? Or does it just make you feel better to think that American Jews are your enemy?
And is suicide or endless war the only real options? Is no hope of peace in the future for Israel? Where is the hope? What is the path for all of us to support?
I sure as hell don’t find any hope in your words, but maybe that’s what I need to know.
Perhaps, Jerry — as I am thinking about it — you are telling me the truth and I need to hear the truth. Perhaps the overarching mindset of Israel is reflected in your words.
What that means is that when my tires are slashed, I am spat upon, my synagogue is defaced and/or smashed, I am denied work, and everyone I work with politically for other causes is against Israel, my only real option is to wave the Israeli flag higher and take the consequences as they come, without ever telling anyone in Israel what I am facing because I will know that they couldn’t care less.
Let me know if that is accurate, because all I want is the truth.
Victoria
As Israeli i can understand what u r talking about.
One thing many American including jew should understand is that America dont just give mouney to israel its two way street, Americaget in return technology developed in israel and right to use it and to say to israel who can buy it from israel.And anather thing Anerica gets is a stable base in midle east and america has lots of intrests in this area.
the ather side of this American Jews, they give mouney to israel and israeli politician without understanding who and why they r givin it.
jews im america should know that they can influence israeli politics. When donate money to Ortodox jews they should know that the same people who take this money dont ecsept your way of life. There r mouch more Reform jew than ortodox and yet the ortodox is the leading voice in israel and have direct impact on israeli politics.
Yesterday former prime minister Ehud Olmert said that the problem in israel today is that israel stoped Initiating and started to folow/drift after athers. Look at Ariel Sharon who was right side of the political map in israel but he knew he has to initiating couse this way he had internetional suppoert. Ehud Olmer as well tried everythin couse he knew thatisraeli probleme is not palestinians but internetional comunety. Palestinian will probebly never be seticfied that way they ignored or rejected all israeli steps but the wotld did suport those steps.
Israeli politician understand the power of american jews but those jews (like u) should make their voice but not by condeming it rather encorege to make stepr forward.
Again sory for my english
Thank you Ziv, that was a much more thoughtful response to me, and I appreciate it.
Most American Jews (not all) do not want to condemn Israel, ever, certainly not me. My mother lived in Israel for many years and I have many cousins there now, and I care about their safety and the future of the state. I care about the future of the Jewish world, and yes, I care about my own safety and security in the United States as well, and that of Jews everywhere.
What is particularly upsetting is when Israel uses — or is perceived to use — more force than in necessary in its military, taking many lives that it should not take. Israelis may say this does not happen, but the perception all over the world is that it does. Don’t shoot me for being the messenger, this is the truth. The flotilla is the latest example, and now the story is that people were executed with multiple shots to the back of the head. Is this true? Is it a lie? I don’t know. If it is true, why was it done? Was it really necessary?
Please understand that young people, including Jewish people, in the USA want, in general, to be part of peace movements. Is this a bad thing? I don’t think so. The trend here is away from war, and many people are opposing the US government in it’s wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is increasingly difficult to make the case for continued war funding for Israel when there seems to be no end to it. At least there has to be some sort of hope, something we can point to and say — this is the way forward, this is what Jews in Israel who want peace are working toward.
I know my position is not popular and it angers people in Israel to hear it but I am Jewish so I speak my mind like a Jewish person.
What is the step forward that you think Israel should make? And how can Israelis who want peace make their voice heard loud so the whole world can hear it?
First of all i have to say that theres no chance that people were executed, and if u want i will expalin u why.As Israeli officer i know somethin like this just cant happend and if it did hapend i would be already out.
Nothin of what u say angers me and more that that thing not mouch diferent from this can be heard in israeli parlament every day.
Very big precent of israeli public (65-75%) ecsept the two states solution of this conflict and the only diferents between the major parties in israel is how to get this two states solution. This day our goverment is doing nothin and its very frastreiting for many people in israel.
Many think that the reason that coused this latest “problem” is that there is no proces no talks no negotiations – NOTHIN.
Our probleme is that there r many parties and some times becouse of the political system of coalitions many small parties that have less than 10 precent of the public votes have more influence on the goverment than those parties that bigger than them.I hope this will change in the futer by israelis and as i said remmember that your voice is also count.
Many israel belive that one of our biggest problems is PR . i dont think its big as people think but there is true in this claim. One of the reason for that that its easy to covver israel , what ather place in the world that have armed conflict that u can covver that easely as it easy in israel. Press can go every were they want ask any thin anyone and in the end of the day they go to tel aviv or jerusalem to Pabs and resturans . If u look in the world news u will find that every day many civilian beeing kiiled around the world but the almost not covered by media.For example yesterday 71 civilians killed in etyopia, 30+ in azeibrjan , who know how many in afganistan and pakistan and i want even talk of darfur, but still israel is mouch more interesting couse those reporters want dare to go to darfur or enter war zones in afganistan and in israel as democratic country they can cover “war” and live in western world.
sorry not ajeibrjan
Kyrgyzstan
Ziv,
U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis wrote a series of essays in the 1920’s about Zionism. It will help you understand a few things and will make those you have been trying to communicate with uncomfortable.
“The Zionist movement is idealistic…..
America’s fundamental law seeks to make real the brotherhood of man. That brotherhood became the Jewish fundamental law more than twenty-five hundred years ago.
America is full of nationalities which, while accepting with enthusiasm their new American citizenship, nevertheless look to some center in the old world as the source and inspiration of their national culture and traditions.
There is no inconsistency between loyalty to America and loyalty to Jewry. The Jewish spirit, the product of our religion and experiences, is essentially modern and essentially American….
Shall we voluntarily yield to anti-Semitism, and instead of solving our “problem” end it by noble suicide? Surely this is no time for Jews to despair. Let us make clear to the world that we too are a nationality striving for equal rights to life and to self-expression.
They believe that only in Palestine can Jewish life be fully protected from the forces of disintegration; that there alone can the Jewish spirit reach its full and natural development; and that by securing for those Jews who wish to settle there the opportunity to do so, not only those Jews, but all Jews will be benefited, and that the long perplexing Jewish Problem will, at fast, find solution.
And since death is not a solution of the problem of life, the solution of the Jewish Problem necessarily involves the continued existence of the Jews as Jews. – Brandeis- the Jewish Problem
We seek to protect as individuals those constituting a minority; but we fail to realize that protection cannot be complete unless group equality also is recognized”. Brandeis – Brandeis The Jewish Problem
The Zionist movement is idealistic and in the best traditions of American traditions. Mistakes have been made and things need to be fixed but central to the understanding the discussions is that Israel and the Jews are under no mandate to commit suicide. It is not a solution for either side.
How can you negotiate a peace with someone who only wants to kill you? Hamas, Hezbollah, the P.L.O., you have faced them many times defending your home. How do you negotiate with those who only desire your blood?
Israel left Gaza and asked for nothing. She left infrastructure, ongoing businesses that could provide jobs and a future to Gazans. She did not destroy the buildings, the water systems, the electrical systems, the communication systems, the roads, the orchards – she gave them to the Palestinians.
What did the Palestinians and later the Hamas rulers do with them? You know the answer; they converted the assets into vehicles of death raining on Israel’s cities and civilian population.
You are confused that the Press sits in the safe cafes of Tel Aviv and writes about Gaza from dispatches from Hamas. Some press do go out and try to report the story but invariably it is their editors that censure the result. Reporting the truth and shaping the story are market based items. If a media outlet, suddenly, honestly, started reporting what was going on it would affect sales. The media outlet has to reflect the biases and prejudices of its buying public – not always seek the truth. The T.V. commentators you watch reflect your views. Few leftists watch Fox News and few people on the right watch MSNBC.
Did it ever occur to you how few of the media ever reported critically on Barack Obama and why not?
Until the meteoric rise of Fox News, the media was monopolistically very left centered with a strong dominance of anti-capitalist, anti-Christian, anti-democratic, anti-Israel biases. The left is very uncomfortable with people of faith and values other than their own. Note I did not say the left is anti-Semitic. Until the Helen Thomas affair, open anti-Semitism was not politically correct. It is politically correct to be anti-Israel. Who are the Israelis, 80% are Jews. The mainstream leftist media is now finding it o.k. to remove their veil. Whoopee Goldberg, on the popular media talk show – the View- validated Thomas’s point of view. ( I hope Goldberg is more ignorant of history than bigoted.) Helen Thomas is deeply bigoted. She simply voiced what many on the liberal left feel, that the Jews – note not Israelis – are wrong re: the Palestinian issue. What you are seeing is the reemergence of classical anti-Semitism. The American Jewish community has begun to feel fear. They are confused. They are not prepared for it.
American Jews suffer from the battered wife syndrome. The battered wife syndrome is, after a vicious beating by a hating, angry husband the wife says, it was her fault for not having cooked his dinner better.
If only Israel had done this or that better the world would love us. If Jews are less Jewish the world will love us. Herzl used to have a Christmas tree in his home. He delighted in lighting the Christmas candles with his children. He considered a solution to the Jewish problem would be if the Jews converted to Christianity, then Jew hatred would cease. His son Hans did in fact convert to Christianity. In the end, before Hans killed himself in frustration and deep depression, he wrote, “A Jew is a Jew, is a Jew.”
The Holocaust raged in Europe as American and British Jews were afraid to rock the boat and protest. Hillel Kook (Peter Bergson) came to the States as Jabotinsky’s representative -1940. He raged on behalf of dying European Jewry against the anti-Semitism of Roosevelt. He was bitterly vilified by American, British and sadly Zionist establishment Jewry. They feared it would lead to anti-Semitism in the U.S. and Britain if the war effort was diverted, even a little, to save Jews. They feared that Americans would turn on them. Any different with your discussion today? Jews defending themselves is causing the rise of anti-Semitism.
You point out all the wonderful things Israel produces in technological, medical, intellectual, cultural advances as reasons for Israel to exist. The haters ask simply why do they have to live in Israel to make these advances? Can they not live in America and do the same things? They are correct. The advances can be made in America just as well. It is not a good excuse for Israel to exist.
Israel is the only country in the Muslim dominated land areas that has freedom of religion, speech, human rights, economic and social freedom, liberation of women, concern for and protection of minorities including the weak and powerless. Israel is a democracy. Democracy is imperfect but it sure beats the alternate forms of government.
Israel is far from perfect. Even in their imperfections they are a horrific thorn in the side of the Arabs. They are a shining example of a better world for Muslims within their own countries and cultures.
For the left, good and evil is relative. Is good and evil so relative that it is not obvious? The hanging of a seven year old boy by the Taliban a few days ago as a Western spy is excused by them as a relative good. Leftists explain it away instead of being filled with righteous horror at the evil it truly is. Fighting the Taliban, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. is backed away from by the left. They say it is their lives, their cultures, their religion and they have a right to run things as they see it. If you accept that, the next time you see a old woman lying in the street having fallen, step over her and keep moving. It is not your problem. It is her family’s problem.
Jews are the world’s humanitarians by nature, culture and faith. We have been and always are the victims, so we understand victimhood. We feel the pain of the oppressed. No one argues that we can do better. We can.
Stop trying to kill us first.
And Ziv, I am equally revolted, by the quickness which some Jews are willing to accept the accusation that Israeli soldiers defending themselves from obvious lethal attack executed the Turkish IHH members. It reflects on their own human values and whom they really struggle to identify with.
To: Ziv Tikhonov
I’m an elderly lady, a Jew, who lives in a small community in Montana, USA. In this state there are very few of us, so what we say to our 3 government representatives don’t have much weight. However, every one of us that I have met, support Israel. We don’t always agree with the decisions your government makes, but we love and support Israel.
I spend a great deal of time reading newspapers, blogs, and online magazines. My problem is not knowing who is reporting the truth. Sometimes the most respected media reports outrages things, that my intelligence tells me couldn’t possibility be. Then comments from around the world come from Jews who should know better, but don’t. I then realize most people don’t really read or understand what they read. The responses to this article of Daniel Gordis’ have many who explain facts, including you, but so many others display their ignorance, prejudices and bigotry.
Most people in my small town know I am a Jew, and every now and then I get a phone call or an e-mail calling me names. Mostly when our small daily paper picks some anti-Israel headline from the Associated Press to publish. I always write a letter, but it never gets published. I wish I had someone in Israel I could write to and ask questions, who would answer me. My daughter’s paternal grandmother’s family was from Belarus.
By the way, do not apologize for your English; you put forth your ideas and facts very well, better than many who have an excellent command of English
I have no doubt whatsoever that Israel had and always will have the inalienable right to not only defend herself but to prevent her enemies from obtaining more munitions to shoot and fire over Gaza borders at Israeli targets. I sincerely hope that America as a whole supports Israel at all costs. Israel is a democracy and is a bullwark against terrorism in the Middle East.
Those who play the ignorance card only live up to their stupidity and lack of convictions to stand up for what WE all know is the RIGHT THING to do. And may I add that any and all Arabic peoples who claim Islamic Jihad are simply pure fools to believe as they do. God is a GOD of love, which these talibans and all other terrorists have not the guts enough to inquire about the LORD GOD on their own. They are but the pawns of Satan out of fear of reprisal from their own people. AGAIN—GOD does not operate like that.
Judith wrote: “And Ziv, I am equally revolted, by the quickness which some Jews are willing to accept the accusation that Israeli soldiers defending themselves from obvious lethal attack executed the Turkish IHH members. It reflects on their own human values and whom they really struggle to identify with.”
Judith, you made many comments in your letter that I appreciated and wanted to respond to, but this last statement left me feeling the usual bitter taste.
What is really reflected in Jews believing those people on the flotilla were executed is . . . well, the Turkish autopsy reports that states those people were executed on the flotilla.
Now, that is all we have heard here in the states. We haven’t heard anything else, I haven’t read an official condemnation of that lie by the Israeli government. Perhaps I have missed it, but I’ve been following the news stories.
So . . . once again, American Jews, far away from Israel, can only listen to the sounds of this war and try to understand. Is the Turkish government lying? Maybe it is, but why? To pull away from Israel? To give in to its Islamic extremist factions?
You mention Fox News. Fox News is supportive of Israel, yes. In general. But it is also one of the most shockingly effecient vehicles for lies and propaganda this country has ever seen. Fox News (or Faux News, as it is called) is a well known tragedy that we’ve been enduring for many years now, and the incredible stream of misinformation that comes from that horrible media power has done incalculable damage to our country.
So please, don’t do Israel any more PR damage by relating it to Fox. Fox is a GOP spin machine that never stops.
One of the problems is that young people on the Left in the US have never had to fight for anything, ever. I’m not going to count the wars of aggression we like to wage, because they might defend and further many of our financial and strategic interests, but we would survive without fighting them. They are not wars of survival, we don’t know from those, and I can speak for my own generation (I’m 34) and the next — we have no concept of being under attack and fighting for our lives. We came right at the end of Vietnam, so our “peace” movements are not even rooted in that reality of death.
Our concept of peace is intellectual, it has never been tested. I think 99.9% of us would fail the test quickly. We would fight and kill to protect ourselves and our families, and do things we don’t want to think are possible.
Anyway, it’s late and there is no point in me going on and on . . .
Victoria
If that really is your name.
At first I honestly thought you were struggling with the issue of Israeli’s right to self defense and related problems of how they reacted to the Flotilla issue. After your last response, which clearly is full of hatred for Israel, the U.S., Fox News and jumped instantly for your source of information to the IHH site that alleges Israel executed the 9 Turkish flotilla members, I knew you might not be who you claim to be. I have heard of infiltration of web sites by those trying to shape, and in your case distort, opinion by pretending to be reasonable people. It is quite obvious to me now that your visceral hatred for any news source that does not agree with your twisted views must be demonized. Agressive demonization is a tactic when confronted by reasonableness and counter arguments. I do not believe you are who you say you are – there is much to much hatred in your emails.
Like a soft golden beam of sunshine which victoriously filters it’s light down into the dark mire and caverns below; Like the goodness of Truth whose Purity causes inequity to fall back and be rendered void;
Forcing Israel to sit down to the table with Avowed Enemies, is tantamount to asking Israel to Strap on TNT and surrender ourselves to Death in martyrdom.
We cannot do that. Israel is called to Life. It is not a suggestion; it is a Commandment from The Creator God of Heaven and Earth, and the King of Israel.
Therefore, the appropriate next step for Israel to take, is to judiciously state the facts which are that our enemies do not wish to deal righteously with us, and refuse to rescind their vow to destroy Israel. Therefore, they are in DEFAULT of upholding their part of the proposals arranged by the Nations and which Israel has participated in. Israel
must therefore back out of any and all Peace Agreements with the PA, since they
have abrogated these Accords and instead have permitted known terrorists to take overt and covert positions in their governments.
I would propose that the people who currently live in the Gaza Strip be absorbed into the United States, Jordan and the European Union as a token of goodwill by those far more capable to further the cause for Peace, than Israel.
We can no longer participate in the charade. Additionaly, since these Nations
are so hell bent on our dealing with the devil, I say, let them show us how. Take them to yourselves and lead the way!
If I were to produce the list of Israeli innocent victims who were murdered since the Infitifada began, this would supply
the proof text of my point.
Israel is for Israeli’s and for humans who
seek to live together in Peace with the children of Israel, the chosen of God; The King of Israel is His Name.
Please contact me if you would like to help me write up the proposition to withdraw from our agreements which are
fully abrogated by the current residents of G’DS LAND.. for the Land belongs to Elohim and He has chosen Israel to inhabit the land. I stand with Israel and the cause of truth in the world.
Davida Geller Rosenberg
Davida.Expressit@gmail.com
Judith,
You are completely wrong about me, so whatever is motivating your paranoia, it’s not helping you see the truth.
I have no idea why you want to defend Fox News, but I will speak the truth about what Fox News is — and this has NOTHING to do with Israel. They are supportive of Israel for the same reason a lot of conservatives are. It’s not the ideological position that I have a problem with, please understand that.
What the problem is, is that Fox New is a propaganda machine that spills out lies all day long. They simply lie, constantly, about everything, in order to shape the nation the way THEY see fit. And they do it all under the banner of “Fair and Balanced” which is the ultimate insult to injury. These lies, this constant attack on people THEY see don’t agree with, is damaging the very social fabric of the USA, creating more polarization, morei misinformed, angry people, and an entre generation of people who don’t know what an actual NEWS show should be — actually fair and balanced!
Judith, there have been movies made about how Fox News lies. People have considered creating some sort of legislation to deal with the problem. If you are defending Fox News, I can only assume you don’t actually watch it very much. If you watch it and defend it . . . well, you are among millions who do, and I wish there was some way to get you and the others to see the truth — but look at the vicious way you defend it and attack me!
Judith, my response was not in the slightest bit “full of hatred of Israel and the US.” Your attack on me is baseless, and it just makes me sad to see someone so willing to jump to extremes when confronted by truths you don’t want to hear — which is what you accuse me of doing, but really it is you.
I would hope in the future you can avoid these kinds of attacks and take a moment to get some perspective before you start accusing someone of being a spy, hating their country, and lying about who they are.
And yes, Victoria is my name.
The reason why Fox News matters in this conversation is because this whole commentary is on an article about the left-wing of the USA and why the Jewish progressives here have a hard time supporting everything that Israel does, no matter what the cost.
When I said please don’t give Israel any more bad PR by relating it to Fox News, I am explaining exactly how the Left in the USA feels about Fox News. They don’t trust it, they feel it is a force of lies, hatred and fear. In truth, they absolutely despise it and if they could, they would shut it down immediately and forever.
That said, I also have serious problems with the Left wing icons of news — in particular Amy Goodman, who speaks against Israel regularly. I think Amy’s show, Democracy Now, is responsible in large part for much of the anti-Israel sentiment among young Left leaning people. Noam Chomsky is her regular guest, and you know how he speaks against Israel all the time, calling it an apartheid state.
There is very little in the way of truly fair and balanced news available today, we all have to learn as much as we can and sort through it using our own discretion and intelligence.
If we can keep from insulting and attacking each other on these threads, I think this kind of dialog online is among our greatest hopes for furthering our understanding of the world we’re living in.
I have a problem with this “Chosen of G-d” business. Our Jewish scripture states this is so, but Christian scripture states that Jesus is the “light ”, and thus believing this, all Christians should be also of the “Chosen”. Muslims believe Muhammad arrived to set both the Jews and the Christians straight on this matter, only Muslims are “Chosen”. For hundreds of years the Christians tried to prove they were the chosen by the sword. They finally gave up, and now only the Muslims are trying to prove by the sword they are The Chosen. I give grateful thanks to the Hindus and Buddhists.
The Jewish scripture does indeed call us G-d’s chosen, however, almost always when this expression is used the rest of the scripture is left out. I am not going to quote the passages but do read: Isaiah 10:17; 40:6-7; 49:06; 51:04 and 60 the whole chapter. My favorite of the prophets is Micah chapter 6, verses 8 and 9. The Christian scripture is Matthew 5:14 & 16. However keep in mind that it is claimed Jesus was a Jew and is preaching to other Jews. The command is to be a “light unto the nations” with loving kindness, justice, and mercy. It does not allow us to commit suicide. Only the Christians are to “turn the other cheek,” which they haven’t been doing much of lately where Israel is concerned, but sure do with the Muslim extremists. Talk about kissing behinds!
To Judith and Victoria, if you are both Jewish girls then you are my sisters, so keep it nice. You both have interesting things to say even if of differing opinions. I want to tell a little story here. Many moons ago, my daughter (then age 8) was visiting her dad and grandmother. They were in the car squabbling about something, with my daughter sitting between them. My daughter said, “When I do that, my other grandmother says I’m being argumentative”. Her Belarus Gram replied with a hug and smile, “If you didn’t do that then you wouldn’t be one of us”.
I agree with Victoria about Fox news, and include most other news media as well. And Victoria, study up on the current Turkish government/leaders. Indeed they lie. It’s inane for Turkey to head an “investigation” into the “raid”, like turning the fox loose in a hen house. Another Goldstone report. For several years I watched news from 4:00 in the afternoon until 9:00 each night. I started with ABC World News; local news; NBC Nightly news; BBC World News; CBS Evening News; Washington Week and McLaughlin. Meet the Press on Sunday mornings, Fox and CNN I could pick up from the Internet. All of them without exception seemed to echo each other with the same versions of the news. Fox and BBC with outright lies, just different ones. I find newspapers about the same. Most of them picking up stories from the associated press and the analysts seem to be the real power behind shaping the news. It is understandable that American Jews are confused; including friend “David”, and when they toss in their own 2 cents it becomes a squabble between Jews, who should be seeking to form a ring of support around Israel until the real truth be known. I also find fewer and fewer people who have any knowledge of history. Not ancient history or modern.
Each week the news is a big surprise to them and they believe what was said today, not what was known even as far back as 5 years. Especially where Israel is concerned. If anyone believed the claim of the Turks of assassinations, they have a sad reality of the whole picture. The IDF wouldn’t do such a thing with their own morality, plus cameras rolling from both their own and those on the ships. Give me one good reason the IDF should have to defend themselves from such a stupid charge?I rarely watch TV news any more, or shows like “The View”, etc., it raises my blood pressure. I read newspapers and blogs from around the world on the Internet and try to glean a bit of truth. What I don’t do is read anti-Israel news, blogs or Internet offerings. You cannot get eggs from foxes. There is enough venomous responses to legitimate offerings such as Dr. Gordis’ to know what would be offered.
I know of a Jewish person that may have helped Obama write his Cairo speech. I printed out the entire text of that speech and on the first page were 6 historical errors! When I asked about this, I was told I just didn’t understand what purpose the speech was for, and no explanation was forth coming. At that moment, I realized that perhaps I might have voted for the wrong person if he were that ignorant of history. BTW, it’s been pointed out that 70% of American Jews voted for Obama, but our other choice was an elderly man with medical problems who chose an ignorant, bigoted, female for a running mate. Most of us who were behind Hillary Clinton were dismayed when Obama won the nomination. The GOP made the mistake of thinking we would vote for any female regardless of qualifications. So please Israelis forgive us for Obama, he walked the walk, talked the talk, and we fell for it. I also think he has been convinced by the powers behind the throne he has no choice but to cater to the oil interests.
Kay,
Thank you for your input. I am Jewish, yes, and like many other American Jews raised in a secular manner, I am reaching a place where I have to understand what my Jewishness means to me. Right now I’m working for an online company that caters to Jewish organizations and synagogues, so I am probably more steeped in Judaism than at any other time in my life. My boss is always giving me books to read, I know he wants to “bring me over” to the more observant side. I am open to all information right now, and I want to learn as much as I can about Israel.
Your question about why the IDF should defend itself stands out to me. I will give you a very good reason why they should defend themselves. BECAUSE PEOPLE BELIEVE THE CHARGE. The reason I post so vehemently on this site is because, as I’ve said, I’ve been dealing with the blow back here in the states over what happened on the flotilla. I’ve spent many days online just defending Israel against the neo-nazi scumbags who are screaming their hatred all over the place. People tell me it is pointless to do this, but I can’t agree. I don’t want these people to dominate the discussion. I don’t want them to influence more people against the Jews.
I am saying that we need to hear all the most reasonable voices from Israel, louder and far more often than we do. Jews in the states NEED to hear from our Jewish family in Israel, we need to create a dialog that helps all of us to understand what is going on there.
A lot of the voices on this thread have helped me to understand more.
Also, you make the point that if we are Jewish, we are sisters. I think this is part of my problem. I feel that way as well, and my character is such that when I feel my family is under attack, I defend with ferocity. Maybe it’s even more so because I’m Jewish! But being a person who also wants peace, and works toward peace in the world and in my own life, this is very difficult. Because the Jews are under attack, and I want to defend them ferociously! But NOT BLINDLY. What I’m saying is, I need information. I need to be able to defend Israel from a more intelligent place than I’m currently standing. I also need to understand the Israeli mindset and how people feel about what their own government is doing in Israel.
If the mindset of most Israelis is that war is the only way, the Palestinians should be purged, and the American Jews should keep their mouth shut about whatever Israel does . . . that is not a position I probably will able to support, and I will feel my hands are tied in defending Israel. I will have to sit back and watch the hatred grow, feeling helpless.
I don’t think this is the case, however, and I just want to call out to Israeli Jews to keep the dialog open, with everyone. American Jews, Palestinians, everyone even if they are seen as the “enemy.” The only enemy I really see is ignorance and an unwillingness to forgive, to keep our hearts open, to listen.
Ah Victoria, you’ve already got a problem, there is no “Israeli mindset”. You should know that when there are two Jews together there are three opinions; yours, mine, and the other person’s. Multiply that by several million and that is what is happening in Israel, and in the old USA. But there is one thing you must understand and not forget it, Hamas and the other radicals wants us dead, no matter where we live. Israel is just the beginning. We have not yet reached the point of making peace with our enemies so they can slaughter us.
Railing against the anti-Semitics only spins your wheels. Those people will believe what they want, and you saying different won’t change their minds.
Your search for understanding is commendable. If you haven’t done so, read all the opinion pages of several newspapers, and all the responses. Jerusalem Post for one. Today there are several good columnist that speak out.
Kay,
You are right about that, for sure. I am one Jewish person and I must have three different opinions within myself!
What I am learning as I continue to read is quite a bit more about Islam, and the “Islamification” of Europe. I can tell you that what is going in Europe and particularly in France and the Netherlands, is really not known or understood in most of the USA. As I read more about this it is affecting my perspective on the situation Israel finds itself in.
I will read the Jerusalem Post, thanks.
Davida Geller Rosenberg – love your posts…love the tone. totally wish I could plagarize.
Victoria: to your statement about “The flotilla is the latest example, and now the story is that people were executed with multiple shots to the back of the head. Is this true? Is it a lie? I don’t know. If it is true, why was it done? Was it really necessary?” I don’t know how your Hebrew is, but even if it’s non-existent, listen to the voices of the Israeli soldiers on the flotilla and tell me if this sounded like a massacre (link below). Also, hard to believe you’ve really done your research, based on the arguements you make (or I should say based on the lies you are so bent on believing are true.) You seem to be eating up, addressing and obsessing over the same type of lies spread by the Jew-haters and non-critical Israel critics, the same type of lies you so vehemently attribute to “Fox News”. Why do you so gladly eat up the lies and still haven’t found any literature on to see that the statements you make about the flotilla are, in fact, lies at worst and completely unconfirmed information, at best? This is a question, you need to ask yourself. From everything you write, it sounds like your research was done on the hate sites. Why do Israel- and Jew-haters hold more authority for you? Interesting choice, don’t you think? I don’t blame you, they do suck one in emotionally – really get the blood boiling, if you enjoy that kind of thing. But if you want the truth, as you say, you need to look elsewhere. In any case, if you want to hear raw emotions, listen to the Israeli soldiers’ voices, and the shear fear in those voices of young boys, and tell me, do you still believe this was a massacre on that flotilla?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFGuwUGaI9o
Dear Victoria: I mentioned other sources for you to look at, when it comes to the flotila. Please, see the following web site for tons of materials that may begin to help resolve some of that confusion you are currently facing. By no means do I propose that this is an easy situation, but just wanted you to get a better perspective, then the one you’ve been choking on:
http://www.jcrcny.org/what-we-do/israel-international-affairs/flotilla-info.html
[...] One of world Jewry’s most articulate observers is my friend and colleague, Rabbi Daniel Gordis. Once again, he hits the proverbial nail on the head. Read his blog posting here. http://danielgordis.org/2010/05/31/facebook-meets-the-flotilla/ [...]