Comments on: Protecting the Zionist Narrative, At Last http://danielgordis.org/2009/06/09/protecting-the-zionist-narrative-at-last/ Daniel Gordis, whom Alan Dershowitz has called “one of Israel’s most insightful observers,” writes and lectures throughout the world on Israeli society and the challenges facing the Jewish state. He blogs at www.danielgordis.org.” Thu, 22 Jul 2010 01:25:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Billie Kozolchyk http://danielgordis.org/2009/06/09/protecting-the-zionist-narrative-at-last/comment-page-1/#comment-371 Billie Kozolchyk Sat, 22 Aug 2009 02:56:27 +0000 http://danielgordis.org/?p=1156#comment-371 In the comment area, multiple opinions are expressed. Mine is simple... It's scary when readers misstate what they read. Nowhere in this piece did Dr Gordis equate the murder of 6,000,000 with anything nor did he say that there needs to be education about Nakbah; he simply said that it is counter productive to criminalize its commemoration and he is absolutely right. I advocate for Israel all the time... as a democracy and as a creator of many things this world could not do without. In the comment area, multiple opinions are expressed. Mine is simple… It’s scary when readers misstate what they read. Nowhere in this piece did Dr Gordis equate the murder of 6,000,000 with anything nor did he say that there needs to be education about Nakbah; he simply said that it is counter productive to criminalize its commemoration and he is absolutely right. I advocate for Israel all the time… as a democracy and as a creator of many things this world could not do without.

]]> By: Jack http://danielgordis.org/2009/06/09/protecting-the-zionist-narrative-at-last/comment-page-1/#comment-292 Jack Mon, 22 Jun 2009 20:14:13 +0000 http://danielgordis.org/?p=1156#comment-292 <i>I nearly cried when they erected the security wall. I was angered when they wreaked vengeance on Lebanon a few years ago, and I was exasperated with the recent devastation in Gaza.</i> William, You are awfully quick to chastise Israel, but you seem to ignore the reasons why these actions took place. You ignore the impact of terror. Did you cry for the innocent Israelis who were murdered on buses and in places like Sbarro Pizza. Did you cry for the Hatuels or any of the children who have been terrorized in Sderot. No one is saying that Israel has not made mistakes, but your suggestion that these actions are similar to apartheid suggest a severe misunderstanding of the situation. It is highly complex and nuanced situation that requires more than crocodile tears. Maybe for you it is easy to sit in NYC and whine. But for those who live it or who have family on the "front lines" it is far different. I nearly cried when they erected the security wall. I was angered when they wreaked vengeance on Lebanon a few years ago, and I was exasperated with the recent devastation in Gaza.

William,

You are awfully quick to chastise Israel, but you seem to ignore the reasons why these actions took place.

You ignore the impact of terror. Did you cry for the innocent Israelis who were murdered on buses and in places like Sbarro Pizza.

Did you cry for the Hatuels or any of the children who have been terrorized in Sderot.

No one is saying that Israel has not made mistakes, but your suggestion that these actions are similar to apartheid suggest a severe misunderstanding of the situation.

It is highly complex and nuanced situation that requires more than crocodile tears. Maybe for you it is easy to sit in NYC and whine.

But for those who live it or who have family on the “front lines” it is far different.

]]> By: Miriam Edelstein http://danielgordis.org/2009/06/09/protecting-the-zionist-narrative-at-last/comment-page-1/#comment-256 Miriam Edelstein Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:23:09 +0000 http://danielgordis.org/?p=1156#comment-256 Regarding settlements and the high ground.. To the victor belong the spoils. I'm not saying that the territories can't be used as a bargaining chip. But there has to be someone who is willing to bargain. There is no one! Did the US give back California, New Mexico, or Texas? Israel was attacked, they won. In the history of the world, when did the victorss have to give back the territory they won? Only Israel! Egypt was willing to bargain, so they got the Sinai back. When Hamas is willing to recognize Israel and bargain we'll talk then Regarding settlements and the high ground..
To the victor belong the spoils. I’m not saying that the territories can’t be used as a bargaining chip. But there has to be someone who is willing to bargain. There is no one!
Did the US give back California, New Mexico, or Texas?
Israel was attacked, they won. In the history of the world, when did the victorss have to give back the territory they won? Only Israel!
Egypt was willing to bargain, so they got the Sinai back. When Hamas is willing to recognize Israel and bargain we’ll talk then

]]> By: Robert Gasner http://danielgordis.org/2009/06/09/protecting-the-zionist-narrative-at-last/comment-page-1/#comment-255 Robert Gasner Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:48:24 +0000 http://danielgordis.org/?p=1156#comment-255 Shin He I understand and respect your points even though I have different thoughts on it.. The one point I disagree on is a nuance rather than a point... It is a privelege of the Kadosh baruch Hu that I will live on the land he promised us in the Torah accepted by the Moslems too...it is not a privelege of the Palestinians, the nations of the world, the UN or any other thing, that gives it to me or denies it from me. And just as an aside...I dont mind waiting in line at the airport for 3 hours to get on a plane, or at the US border in my car for 4 hours or other "checkpoints"...and remember, we are not waitng there because Jews blew up airplanes, or the World Trade Centre....while we are all waiting, lets be thinking about who started it, who continues it, and what its going to take to get them to come to the table to talk peace.. As much as I'd like to continue, I feel we are misusing Dr. Gordis' space....email me through google search even though I have enjoyed the exchange here Kol toov Shin He

I understand and respect your points even though I have different thoughts on it..

The one point I disagree on is a nuance rather than a point…

It is a privelege of the Kadosh baruch Hu that I will live on the land he promised us in the Torah accepted by the Moslems too…it is not a privelege of the Palestinians, the nations of the world, the UN or any other thing, that gives it to me or denies it from me.

And just as an aside…I dont mind waiting in line at the airport for 3 hours to get on a plane, or at the US border in my car for 4 hours or other “checkpoints”…and remember, we are not waitng there because Jews blew up airplanes, or the World Trade Centre….while we are all waiting, lets be thinking about who started it, who continues it, and what its going to take to get them to come to the table to talk peace..

As much as I’d like to continue, I feel we are misusing Dr. Gordis’ space….email me through google search even though I have enjoyed the exchange here

Kol toov

]]> By: Shin He http://danielgordis.org/2009/06/09/protecting-the-zionist-narrative-at-last/comment-page-1/#comment-254 Shin He Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:32:00 +0000 http://danielgordis.org/?p=1156#comment-254 Robert Gasner, Lirdof shalom there has to be a wish for shalom in the first place. You have seen many checkpoints, no doubt, and without the obligation of being processed through any of them in order to get from point A to point B, also no doubt. Those checkpoints do protect you from being sitting ducks. They do not protect you from becoming persecutors and certainly not from making bullies out of some of our young people of an impressionable age. Living with this kind of protection also makes thugs out of even younger kids from both the Arab and the Jewish communities. In addition, they make victims out of people who have to walk for miles to circumvent barriers and get to fields that are near their houses and then walk miles back again, all for the privilege of passing through checkpoints that are open for limited periods of time during the day, some only twice a week. Or maybe I should have said all to ensure your privilege. That is not an education I see as suitable for children. That is not a lifestyle I associate with Zionism, sorry. As for the akeda, was Abraham not instructed to sacrifice a ram instead of his son thereby setting a pattern of intolerance for human sacrifice? This is but of little import when a news story such as the one we read yesterday is interpreted only as ingratitude for the privilege of owning a healthy animal. As for the missiles, when we have a country with defined borders, we'll be able to defend ourselves from them. There was an Israel before 1967. It was a darned sight more secure than the Israel-without-borders we turned it into afterwards. Education should also include distinguishing the words shalom and sheqet from one another. They are far from being the same thing. Robert Gasner,

Lirdof shalom there has to be a wish for shalom in the first place. You have seen many checkpoints, no doubt, and without the obligation of being processed through any of them in order to get from point A to point B, also no doubt.

Those checkpoints do protect you from being sitting ducks. They do not protect you from becoming persecutors and certainly not from making bullies out of some of our young people of an impressionable age. Living with this kind of protection also makes thugs out of even younger kids from both the Arab and the Jewish communities. In addition, they make victims out of people who have to walk for miles to circumvent barriers and get to fields that are near their houses and then walk miles back again, all for the privilege of passing through checkpoints that are open for limited periods of time during the day, some only twice a week. Or maybe I should have said all to ensure your privilege. That is not an education I see as suitable for children. That is not a lifestyle I associate with Zionism, sorry.

As for the akeda, was Abraham not instructed to sacrifice a ram instead of his son thereby setting a pattern of intolerance for human sacrifice? This is but of little import when a news story such as the one we read yesterday is interpreted only as ingratitude for the privilege of owning a healthy animal.

As for the missiles, when we have a country with defined borders, we’ll be able to defend ourselves from them. There was an Israel before 1967. It was a darned sight more secure than the Israel-without-borders we turned it into afterwards.

Education should also include distinguishing the words shalom and sheqet from one another. They are far from being the same thing.

]]> By: Robert Gasner http://danielgordis.org/2009/06/09/protecting-the-zionist-narrative-at-last/comment-page-1/#comment-253 Robert Gasner Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:32:59 +0000 http://danielgordis.org/?p=1156#comment-253 Mr. Shin He, Thanks for taking the time to answer me on this blog, but I believe you are mistaken on my position. Vis a vis standing by a checkpoint for a few hours....I'm moving to Karnei Shomron next month...I have seen many checkpoints...they are there to protect those who live in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv as well, which our Palestinian cousins claim is also Occupied Territory. Without those checkpoints, we are all sitting ducks. As to supplying the other side...they seem to have no problem importing close over 50,000 missiles into Gaza and Lebanon...perhaps those who supply them with death material could supply them with life material....and by the way, yesterday Israel shipped in 140 truckloads...how many loaves of bread did the 1 billion Muslims ship in? I didn't understand how Palestinians using animals to deliver bombs to murder Israelis related to Akeidat Yitzchak. I see little evidence that we don't recognize or at least understand the Nakba...we have tens of thousands of Israelis who will never let us forget it - those who are honest rodfei shalom interest4ed in tikkun olam and those who are "misguided" in their hatred of everything Israel, Jewish, etc - and I recognize a huge difference between them and there is no equivalence in their morality. But lets not mistake recognizing Palestinian suffering for what it is....its mostly another attempt to spit on Israel, Jews, our Torah and moral code and our right to be "am chofshi (kadosh) beartzeynu" In return for all of them recognizing our right to live peacefully and securely in our ancestral homeland, I will walk down Dizengoff leading a parade with baloons recognizing the damage done during their Nakba...but Im not holding my breath for their recognition of Israel. So keep those baloons in the bag, and keep your ammunition dry because sure as hell, they and their 50,000 missiles are comming for all of us agin in the not too distant future, letz'areinu harav. Mr. Shin He,

Thanks for taking the time to answer me on this blog, but I believe you are mistaken on my position.

Vis a vis standing by a checkpoint for a few hours….I’m moving to Karnei Shomron next month…I have seen many checkpoints…they are there to protect those who live in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv as well, which our Palestinian cousins claim is also Occupied Territory. Without those checkpoints, we are all sitting ducks.

As to supplying the other side…they seem to have no problem importing close over 50,000 missiles into Gaza and Lebanon…perhaps those who supply them with death material could supply them with life material….and by the way, yesterday Israel shipped in 140 truckloads…how many loaves of bread did the 1 billion Muslims ship in?

I didn’t understand how Palestinians using animals to deliver bombs to murder Israelis related to Akeidat Yitzchak.

I see little evidence that we don’t recognize or at least understand the Nakba…we have tens of thousands of Israelis who will never let us forget it – those who are honest rodfei shalom interest4ed in tikkun olam and those who are “misguided” in their hatred of everything Israel, Jewish, etc – and I recognize a huge difference between them and there is no equivalence in their morality. But lets not mistake recognizing Palestinian suffering for what it is….its mostly another attempt to spit on Israel, Jews, our Torah and moral code and our right to be “am chofshi (kadosh) beartzeynu”

In return for all of them recognizing our right to live peacefully and securely in our ancestral homeland, I will walk down Dizengoff leading a parade with baloons recognizing the damage done during their Nakba…but Im not holding my breath for their recognition of Israel. So keep those baloons in the bag, and keep your ammunition dry because sure as hell, they and their 50,000 missiles are comming for all of us agin in the not too distant future, letz’areinu harav.

]]> By: William http://danielgordis.org/2009/06/09/protecting-the-zionist-narrative-at-last/comment-page-1/#comment-251 William Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:53:55 +0000 http://danielgordis.org/?p=1156#comment-251 I'm an American secular Jew, 27 years old, who attended Zionist-minded Sunday school, Jewish day school, and summer camp. When I was a child I loved to sing the Israeli folk songs we learned, like "Yerushalayim Shel Zahav". As I grew older, I watched as Israel made successively worse P.R. blunders and morphed into an increasingly repressive, apartheid state. I winced as Israel began restricting the travel of Palestinians. I nearly cried when they erected the security wall. I was angered when they wreaked vengeance on Lebanon a few years ago, and I was exasperated with the recent devastation in Gaza. Israeli leadership has made the decision to value short-term security above long-term sustainability, essentially declaring in both word and deed that they don't care what the rest of the world thinks. And who am I to criticize? Surely if I were living in Haifa with the threat of a missile landing in my backyard, things like the security fence and destroying Lebanon's infrastructure would seem like more appetizing options than they do to me here, sitting at my desk in New York. But we all see the fruits of these decisions: Zionism is becoming a dirty word. American and Israeli Jews alike are becoming divided about the legitimacy of a state which can act so callously. The Palestinians, whose leadership is a shambles of violence and corruption, have goaded the Israelis into losing their hard-won credibility and the moral high ground. And now Netanhayu, encouraging more settlements? Who in their right mind would claim in this day and age that we need all of Eretz Yisroel? Frankly, I hope Obama gives him a hard smack in the tuchus and reminds him that Israel is (or was) about taking the High ground. Without it, it's just another colonizer. I’m an American secular Jew, 27 years old, who attended Zionist-minded Sunday school, Jewish day school, and summer camp. When I was a child I loved to sing the Israeli folk songs we learned, like “Yerushalayim Shel Zahav”. As I grew older, I watched as Israel made successively worse P.R. blunders and morphed into an increasingly repressive, apartheid state. I winced as Israel began restricting the travel of Palestinians. I nearly cried when they erected the security wall. I was angered when they wreaked vengeance on Lebanon a few years ago, and I was exasperated with the recent devastation in Gaza.
Israeli leadership has made the decision to value short-term security above long-term sustainability, essentially declaring in both word and deed that they don’t care what the rest of the world thinks. And who am I to criticize? Surely if I were living in Haifa with the threat of a missile landing in my backyard, things like the security fence and destroying Lebanon’s infrastructure would seem like more appetizing options than they do to me here, sitting at my desk in New York.
But we all see the fruits of these decisions: Zionism is becoming a dirty word. American and Israeli Jews alike are becoming divided about the legitimacy of a state which can act so callously. The Palestinians, whose leadership is a shambles of violence and corruption, have goaded the Israelis into losing their hard-won credibility and the moral high ground.
And now Netanhayu, encouraging more settlements? Who in their right mind would claim in this day and age that we need all of Eretz Yisroel? Frankly, I hope Obama gives him a hard smack in the tuchus and reminds him that Israel is (or was) about taking the High ground. Without it, it’s just another colonizer.

]]> By: Shlomo Vile http://danielgordis.org/2009/06/09/protecting-the-zionist-narrative-at-last/comment-page-1/#comment-248 Shlomo Vile Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:18:48 +0000 http://danielgordis.org/?p=1156#comment-248 As usual, Daniel Gordis’s piece is interesting and thought provoking, but it misses the main point. The modern Zionist movement is negligent at remembering their own past by nature. The main thrust of this movement was to create a new identity – called Israeli – that would be a bold and dramatic break from the old identity – called Jew. Although the Zionist pioneers were themselves steeped in the traditional Jewish texts and traditions, they created a secular educational system that gives the Jews of Israel virtually no knowledge of their own Jewish heritage. The modern products of that system in Israel now cannot complete the phrase “Shma Yisrael” and have no appreciation for our special connection to Jerusalem or to the other holy sites and places that bind us to the land. The State of Israel is founded in large part on forgetfulness. It does not seem surprising that the State should be incidentally as forgetful of its own history as it is intentionally forgetful of its Jewish roots. As usual, Daniel Gordis’s piece is interesting and thought provoking, but it misses the main point. The modern Zionist movement is negligent at remembering their own past by nature. The main thrust of this movement was to create a new identity – called Israeli – that would be a bold and dramatic break from the old identity – called Jew. Although the Zionist pioneers were themselves steeped in the traditional Jewish texts and traditions, they created a secular educational system that gives the Jews of Israel virtually no knowledge of their own Jewish heritage. The modern products of that system in Israel now cannot complete the phrase “Shma Yisrael” and have no appreciation for our special connection to Jerusalem or to the other holy sites and places that bind us to the land. The State of Israel is founded in large part on forgetfulness. It does not seem surprising that the State should be incidentally as forgetful of its own history as it is intentionally forgetful of its Jewish roots.

]]> By: Brynn Olenberg Sugarman http://danielgordis.org/2009/06/09/protecting-the-zionist-narrative-at-last/comment-page-1/#comment-247 Brynn Olenberg Sugarman Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:58:40 +0000 http://danielgordis.org/?p=1156#comment-247 Bravo! Of course Zionist education is the answer! The post-Zionist philosophy must be defeated with a resounding return to Zionism, "post" excluded... At the same time, we needn't cater to legalizing the notion of the "Nakba." At this time, there is enough pro-Arab and anti-semitic propaganda worldwide working against us without permitting more to be legalized within the state itself. America can afford to be generous when it comes to Native American gripes: Native Americans are not seeking the downfall of the United States. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for a disturbing number of Arabs both within and without Israel. Furthermore, when I adopted my daughter from Vietnam, I needed to take a loyalty oath on her behalf to make her an American citizen. And those of us who grew up in the US all remember standing at attention before the American flag each morning, hands on our hears, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance... If demands for national loyalty are valid for the US, that "bastion" of democracy, then why are similar demands on the part of the Israeli government feared as "undemocratic" and even "fascist?" Sincerely, Brynn Olenberg Sugarman Ra'anana, Israel Bravo! Of course Zionist education is the answer! The post-Zionist philosophy must be defeated with a resounding return to Zionism, “post” excluded…

At the same time, we needn’t cater to legalizing the notion of the “Nakba.” At this time, there is enough pro-Arab and anti-semitic propaganda worldwide working against us without permitting more to be legalized within the state itself. America can afford to be generous when it comes to Native American gripes: Native Americans are not seeking the downfall of the United States. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for a disturbing number of Arabs both within and without Israel.

Furthermore, when I adopted my daughter from Vietnam, I needed to take a loyalty oath on her behalf to make her an American citizen. And those of us who grew up in the US all remember standing at attention before the American flag each morning, hands on our hears, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance…

If demands for national loyalty are valid for the US, that “bastion” of democracy, then why are similar demands on the part of the Israeli government feared as “undemocratic” and even “fascist?”

Sincerely,

Brynn Olenberg Sugarman
Ra’anana, Israel

]]> By: Shin He http://danielgordis.org/2009/06/09/protecting-the-zionist-narrative-at-last/comment-page-1/#comment-246 Shin He Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:15:35 +0000 http://danielgordis.org/?p=1156#comment-246 Mr Gasner, The Nakba is used against us with or without our help. The problem is our failure to take on board that it happened and that we played a part in it. Once we internalize it - it's a reality not an invention - it becomes part of a comprehensive story that is broad enough to plant more than just dragon's teeth. For normalcy to reach the other side when we control everything that reaches it, up to whom is it to supply it? And what is worse, using an animal or a human to deliver a bomb? The Torah is explicit on this. Human sacrifice is forbidden, animal sacrifice is not (viz. akedat Yitzhak). You can't go to Gaza but you can go to the West Bank. I suggest you stand by a checkpoint for an hour or two just to observe, and then tell us how they are doing just fine. Confusion indeed begs clarity. Mr Gasner,

The Nakba is used against us with or without our help. The problem is our failure to take on board that it happened and that we played a part in it. Once we internalize it – it’s a reality not an invention – it becomes part of a comprehensive story that is broad enough to plant more than just dragon’s teeth.

For normalcy to reach the other side when we control everything that reaches it, up to whom is it to supply it?

And what is worse, using an animal or a human to deliver a bomb? The Torah is explicit on this. Human sacrifice is forbidden, animal sacrifice is not (viz. akedat Yitzhak).

You can’t go to Gaza but you can go to the West Bank. I suggest you stand by a checkpoint for an hour or two just to observe, and then tell us how they are doing just fine.

Confusion indeed begs clarity.

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